# To all the girls: Why don't you like nice guys? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 3, 2008, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282 "2008-10-03T07:12:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/441 "2008-10-09T17:01:00Z")
> [@Brandon](#): > > You certainly “like” them to the point of allowing them to arbitrarily control your emotions. Truthfully, I question whether or not you like yourself enough to like a woman in the way you profess wanting to. A real woman, not just the concept of women. You took the words right out of my mouth. I don’t know **Auto** outside of this thread, but everything he’s said about himself demonstrates some seriously creepy behavior that I imagine would turn just about anybody off and some really bad judgment to boot. “Always putting her happiness before my own?” That is incredibly creepy; who _wouldn’t_ set a land speed record running away from that? Going on two “dates” with a girl who is currently seeing her boyfriend of five years? That is not a recipe for success. It doesn’t make him a bad person, but it definitely makes me think “Nice Guy.” I’m curious, Auto - do you have many friends who are in relationships, or are most of your friends single? Are most of your friends men or women? ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/442 "2008-10-09T18:48:07Z")
> [@shy\_guy](#): > > I’m curious, Auto - do you have many friends who are in relationships, or are most of your friends single? Are most of your friends men or women? Most of my friends are single men. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/443 "2008-10-09T18:53:04Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > I’m sure you think the whole knight thing is just terribly romantic, but it really comes across as kind of creepy. You see, the thing about knights is that they’re really only helpful to damsels in distress, ie people who need rescuing. By and large, emotionally healthy women don’t need or want rescuing, and acting like we do is infantilizing. It smacks of that “boundary issue” thing they were discussing up-page. I understand. My question is: what is romantic? What is an acceptable sacrifice to be made for a SO? How can one try to be considerate and place the SO first at times without appearing ‘sycophantic and spineless?’ ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/444 "2008-10-09T19:02:15Z")
> [@Brandon](#): > > I want to know how the conversation even got to that point. It seems to me that you are placing personal validation on things like relationships and getting laid, why? I can’t imagine a scenario where someone says to another that not having sex was just a technicality unless there was some serious guilt-tripping going on. The fact that you are hanging your hat on such a thing is pretty damned weird. I guess it felt nice thinking we did have a relationship even if it was brief. You’re right.. I do place self-esteem on having a relationship, most likely because of the extreme bitterness I have about my past failures with dating. I’m trying to change that. > [@](#): > > I’m sure you’re annoyed and will be taking a stand against that perception as soon as someone comes along to prop you up. OK, now this is just unnecessary. I have been listening to all advice in this thread, and even if I have acted defensively, I’m trying to keep an open mind. > [@](#): > > Obviously her ex doesn’t have your best interests at heart, but I really have to question if you even have your own best interests at heart. Realized what she has lost? Really? She is telling you she realizes what she lost by blocking almost all forms of communication, and what she realizes is she likes having you lost. Think about why that might be. She values her relationship with her BF more than the brief thing we had. That’s fine with me. > [@](#): > > Time to saddle up the pony and hit the ol’ dusty trail, cowboy. All of your mockingly bitter and caustic tone aside, I am taking this advice. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Weird\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Weird\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Weird_One)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/445 "2008-10-09T21:27:18Z")
I took a long break from dating in college and focused on fixing the things that I did wrong in relationships (in my case, I did all the work of maintaining the relationship, which left nothing for my boyfriend to do, and then I got resentful that he wasn’t doing anything). When I was ready to start looking again, I dated a couple guys that I knew or met through friends, and then “gave in” to internet dating. That turned out to be the best thing for me, because dating is really a numbers game. I went on a lot of dates, but only pursued a few guys. There were one or two that I thought might work out long-term, but they didn’t feel the same way. There were one or two who thought I might be the one for them, but I wasn’t feeling it. The biggest realization I came to was that there was nothing inherently wrong with me, or with the guys I was dating. We just weren’t right for each other. Eventually, I found a guy who was. So my advice is twofold: 1) Get introspective, and if you find some flaws in yourself, fix them. Then, 2) Date a lot of people, but don’t waste your time or energy on incompatible relationships. If it doesn’t work out, try not to place blame, just move on to someone else. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/446 "2008-10-10T02:16:12Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > I understand. My question is: what is romantic? What is an acceptable sacrifice to be made for a SO? How can one try to be considerate and place the SO first at times without appearing ‘sycophantic and spineless?’ There’s no real definition of romantic. You ask 10 people, you’ll get 15 answers. I personally thought it was romantic when **DoctorJ** got me a dog training system for Christmas right after we got engaged. My coworkers were unimpressed, and rather aghast at my enthusiasm. Acceptable sacrifices depend on a lot of stuff–length and depth of the relationship, specific circumstances, how likely you are to make an actual difference, all sorts of stuff. My husband once spent five hours driving through 18" snow to get me home for Christmas, even after I suggested we turn around and go back to his mom’s house. Most of the time, this would be an over-the-top thing to do, but we’d been together for 10 years, we were married, I hadn’t been home for the holidays in 2 years because we moved 3 states away for his job, it was my only niece’s 1st Christmas, and my uncle had just died. As it was, I really appreciated it, but under _any_ other circumstances I’d have been wondering what the everloving fuck was wrong with him. (And even then, there were points before we got there when I kinda wondered what the fuck was wrong with him.) General rule of thumb is if it would make you feel a little awkward for someone to do the same thing for you, it’s probably overboard. If you expect recognition or appreciation for having done it, or would be disappointed or put out not to be thanked for what you’ve done, you’re not doing for the right reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/447 "2008-10-10T05:18:37Z")
**Cazzie** , get thee to [Jezebel](http://jezebel.com/)now and submit that letter to their Crap Email feature. They also have an archived post on dating a ‘reformed’ nice guy ([here](http://jezebel.com/gossip/dos-and-don.ts/is-there-a-worse-dude-to-do-than-the-reformed-nice-guy-334253.php)). A great sample: > [@](#): > > ``` > You ignored the nice guy. You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy. You laughed at his consideration and resented his devotion. You valued the aloof boyfriend more than the attentive "just-a-" friend. Eventually, he took the hint and moved on with his life. > > ``` > > He probably came to realize, one day, that women aren’t really attracted to guys who hold doors open; or make dinners just because; or buy you a Christmas gift that you mentioned, in passing, that you really wanted five months ago; or listen when you’re upset; or hold you when you cry. He came to realize that, if he wanted a woman like you, he’d have to act more like the boyfriend that you had. He probably cleaned up his look, started making some money, and generally acted like more of an asshole than he ever wanted to be. > > ``` > Fact is, now, he's probably getting laid, and in a way, your ultimate rejection of him is to thank for that. > > ``` **ladyfoxfire** is spot on about at least one thing – guys won’t have the same experiences with their male friends and acquaintances as the women these guys date. Especially if they’re the types of guys who don’t discuss relationships in detail with one another, which isn’t exactly rare. > [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > As a young, underemployed man, dating just sucks. If you can avoid getting bitter in your 20’s, rich rewards await you later. In the meantime do the best you can do improve your game, and for heaven’s sake, don’t grovel or act desperate. Unless Groveling and Desperate is the name of your band and you wear cute clothes and a sour expression. Then you’re set. I suppose someone might call you a ‘bad boy,’ but we can’t even agree on ‘nice guy,’ so I’d love a definition for that (Unkempt hair? Tattoos? Alcoholic? All the hot ‘bad boys’ I’ve known have just been risk-takers with nasty senses of humor, but ultimately respectful and smart). > [@niblet\_head](#): > > You’ve had three relationships of a serious nature? How does that make you unlucky in love? (You will suffer the pain for your beloved’s happiness, except, it seems, move, have kids, or get married.) Yes! This! We aren’t hearing from a 40-year-old virgin. Just someone who’s hit a rough patch. Going after someone who’s in a relationship? Does not compute. Women _do_ go for shy, genuinely nice guys – but I imagine getting more experience with women (and maybe a bit of a lady-led makeover) makes these guys more confident and therefore, one might imagine, luckier in love, or married. Therefore no longer considered shy and socially awkward. Okay. I need to stop reading this thread. Seriously now. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/448 "2008-10-10T21:19:23Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > There’s no real definition of romantic. You ask 10 people, you’ll get 15 answers. I personally thought it was romantic when **DoctorJ** got me a dog training system for Christmas right after we got engaged. My coworkers were unimpressed, and rather aghast at my enthusiasm. Well, do you have a dog? ;)😃 ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/449 "2008-10-10T21:59:49Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > Yes! This! We aren’t hearing from a 40-year-old virgin. Not yet, but it’s a long thread to catch up on. ---
**Author:** ![greatshakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@greatshakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greatshakes)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/450 "2008-10-12T04:39:23Z")
> [@MeanJoe](#): > > I agree, **pbbth** did do a great job in addressing what was at the heart of my question. I guess my concern, and why I asked, is it would seem to me to be a fine line to tread that could easily be interpreted as “Warning: Nice Guy” instead. > > MeanJoe: “Dinner? Sure! Where would you like to go?” > MeanJoe’s Thoughts: _This is an attractive and funny woman and I don’t care where we eat, I’m more interested in getting spend some time with her than what’s on the menu._ > > Imaginary Date’s Thoughts: _Oh God, another passive-aggresive Nice Guy who just wants to make me happy and has no opinions!_ > Imaginary Date: “Um… I just remembered I have to wash my hair!” > > Okay, that is a really lame and simple example but I think you can get my drift. 😃 > > MeanJoe - Who is reading this thread with interest and trying to reflect upon his own behaviors/attitudes which maybe symptoms of that Nice Guy attitude. I think your scenario is on the mark. Been there, done that too many times. ID thinks that I’m some wishy washy wuss, and, in reality, I have better things to worry about than what/where I’m going to eat something that I shall crap out in a day or two. But, as it was later reported to me, my whole world view could best be described as “he doesn’t know what he wants.” ---
**Author:** ![Brandon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f08c70/32.png) [@Brandon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/451 "2008-10-12T07:25:25Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > All of your mockingly bitter and caustic tone aside, I am taking this advice. I’m glad to hear it. I wasn’t attempting to hurt you with my sarcasm (though I do have fun with it :D), I was using it to try and get my point through to you. I have found that sometimes we need to get cut open a little to let words sink in deep enough. It was my last ditch attempt to try and offer some advice, as it’s astounding you were even spending effort wondering if she may miss you as a result of the “break”; let alone posting that desire online. Take it from someone who spent some time in his younger days as a “Nice Guy”, it takes some shocking of your system to spark change. Godspeed in your self-improvement. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/452 "2008-10-12T10:26:33Z")
Autocylus, I feel I owe you a bit of an apology. I was overly harsh in my earlier post - and failed to give credit where it’s due. You are taking \*truckloads \*for this OP, but you seem to be handling it with stoicism and humour (after the early rough patch). Most of us get to go through this sort of thing in private. Good on ya, mate. Don’t call her. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/453 "2008-10-12T20:03:53Z")
> [@maggenpye](#): > > Autocylus, I feel I owe you a bit of an apology. I was overly harsh in my earlier post - and failed to give credit where it’s due. > > You are taking \*truckloads \*for this OP, but you seem to be handling it with stoicism and humour (after the early rough patch). Most of us get to go through this sort of thing in private. Don’t sweat it. Like **Brandon** said, it was necessary for me to get roughed up a little before I truly opened up. As for taking truckloads, well there’s a small yet perverse part of me that enjoys it, so no worries there. Anyway, just replying to let you know you don’t have anything to worry about 🆒 (and yeah, I haven’t contacted her and I’m not planning to. At the risk of sounding like an arrogant jerk, it’s her loss.) ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/454 "2008-10-13T17:16:35Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > Don’t sweat it. Like **Brandon** said, it was necessary for me to get roughed up a little before I truly opened up. As for taking truckloads, well there’s a small yet perverse part of me that enjoys it, so no worries there. Although there’s a lot of criticism on this thread, a good portion of it is constructive criticism from both the women and the men…just focus on that and you’ll be fine. Just fine tune that criticism filter of yours; most of us mean well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282.md?page=22)