# To all the girls: Why don't you like nice guys? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 3, 2008, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282 "2008-10-03T07:12:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Influential\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Influential\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Influential_Panda)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/81 "2008-10-03T17:54:57Z")
Ever notice how many really really pretty girls are with ugly ass dudes? I’ll give you a hint: It’s not their noses. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/82 "2008-10-03T17:57:26Z")
> [@MeanJoe](#): > > I’m on the edge of my seat in anticipation! Threesomes with them, and their roommates, dude. _Every single time._ ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/83 "2008-10-03T17:57:48Z")
You guys/gals are making me want to get _really_ passive aggressive here. Is it all a matter of just stop asking and wondering and begin to accept simple truths, simply stated? ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/84 "2008-10-03T18:02:55Z")
**Auto** , I’ve complained about this in the past and I’ve since realized that eventually you must come to one or more of these three conclusions: **Possibility 1: You aren’t very good at knowing what women want.** Women are extremely perceptive, with a better sense of hearing, smell, and sight than men; they have better social skills and greater nuance of language than you do. The average man walks into a room and he’s scoping out the physical details: where’s the bathroom, where’s the exits, where can I sit with my back to a wall? The average woman walks into the same room and she could tell you who’s dating whom, who’s having a fight, who’s had a bad day, who’s flirting, who’s angry about who’s flirting; and the next day she could tell you what color the wallpaper was and what color shoes everyone was wearing. Admit to the possibility that when you say “girls like bad boys” that they can see something that you’ve missed, and that your perception may be limited or incorrect. Solution: learn. Get a book on the subject. Find out how women think and what they want. The book “What Women Want Men To Know” is a good start. **Possibility 2: You will never succeed in trying to be what you think women want.** Women are more socially perceptive, as I said, and it’s extremely difficult to fool their creep-radar. If you’re trying to be Nice with a capital N, and it’s not working, then you may have to admit that the strategy is failing. Solution: be yourself. Be a whole human being with interests and dislikes, even at the cost of losing a potential girlfriend. You’ll be more interesting and you’ll be _happier_ with yourself. Even if it doesn’t get you a date, being happier is better. **Possibility 3: You aren’t a very good judge of your own character.** Few people ever are. You may think you’re being a Nice Guy, but you may have little idea how a prospective mate sees you. You may think you were the New Hotness in the bar that night, pimped to the nines, but the women probably thought you were Old and Busted. Solution: investigate other ways to match up to women. Ask friends if they know any single women. Look into a personality-matching online dating service (like [OKCupid.com](http://OKCupid.com)). Trust someone else’s judgment rather than your own. ---
**Author:** ![accidentalyuppie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@accidentalyuppie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/accidentalyuppie)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/85 "2008-10-03T18:18:02Z")
The best relationship I had was with a “not nice” guy. He was smart and funny and had strong opinions…all qualities that I’d like to think I share. We seemed like The Bickersons at times, at lots of times. We fought a lot but the fights never lasted long. A typical fight might be over the “where to go for dinner” issue. He would insist on one place, I would be sick of always going there and want another place, then one of us would storm off to GET THE DINNER I WANT…then 10 minutes later one of us would cave and call the others cell phone and we would make up. We never had a fight that lasted more than 30 minutes. Why did this work? Because every little difference was aired immediately. Nothing ever festered, no resentment every had a chance to build up. And the sex was endlessly hot, the honeymoon stage never ended and we used to marvel at that. When the “nice guy” and his girl get into a fight it can be a doozy, because suddenly the nice guy remembers every single time he’s deferred a decision or repressed his opinion. A lot of stuff builds up inside these passive aggressive “nice guys” and it can get scary. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/86 "2008-10-03T18:20:16Z")
I think I’m going to check out that book. Between social engagements. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/87 "2008-10-03T18:32:41Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Admit to the possibility that when you say “girls like bad boys” that they can see something that you’ve missed, and that your perception may be limited or incorrect. Returning if I may to my thesis - that the problem may be with other men as much as with women… It may be the case that women like the kind of men who make _you_ feel bad about _yourself._ Look into that feeling; listen to it. Why do they threaten you? Are you being honest with yourself about the “you” you show to the world? Why might you lie to yourself? I can’t guarantee you any quick answers, or even that you’ll feel better about yourself after asking. You may be in for a long hard climb, and a lot of work on your life, goals, and desires. But you will at least be on the way to seeing yourself as others see you - which, for social purposes anyway, really _is_ more important than “who you really are.” ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/88 "2008-10-03T19:00:07Z")
I’m a guy, and I don’t like the “I’m a nice guy, why don’t women like me?” line very much. I have, in fact, thought that very thought in the course of my life but I recognize that it is not a useful or insightful question. I’m fairly certain that one of the reasons, in my case, that I have had virtually no sexual contact with women is that I don’t give off sexual signals (or at least the right kind of sexual signals) to women I am interested in. I’m also not out and about in enough social settings. I’m sure there are other factors as well, but those two seem be fundamental to the situation (in my case). This topic comes up fairly regularly on the boards, it seems, and I find myself drawn to the thread because I can identify with the feeling and the lament, but it seems to play out more or less the same way every time. I will say though that **Autolycus** is responding reasonably and thoughtfully and that he seems like he probably is a “nice guy” (lower case) and not a “Nice Guy™”. In my case I’ve come to realize that women are interested in me, I’m just not generally aware that they are and I don’t tend to give them the nonverbal cues that say “Hey, I’m interested, are you?” (At least I think that I’m not giving these cues). The person I lost my virginity to (recently, at age 29) had to guide the conversation in that direction and then tell me up front and frankly what she wanted to do with me. Without all of that effort and stating explicitly what she wanted, I would not have had sex with her even though the situation was such that I was interested, I suspected she was interested, and I would have had to spend the night at her place in any case, probably in her bed. I am, I’m pretty sure, a nice guy. That’s not the reason that I have had little romantic success with women, though. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/89 "2008-10-03T19:16:28Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Returning if I may to my thesis - that the problem may be with other men as much as with women… You may have something there. But if I might make an observation, it pays to understand how women use language. I can’t remember where I read this statistic, but men tend to a larger vocabulary than women, but use it less flexibly; women have a smaller vocabulary but every word contains an ocean of nuance depending on context. If I listened to the ladies at work talk about their relationships I would get the idea that they were each on the verge of divorce — if I interpreted literally their phrases like “oh, I could _kill_ my husband” or “[Steve] is such a jerk!” or “I can’t believe how lazy he is all the time!” What they usually _mean_ is “something is bothering me and I want to vent about it to a sympathetic ear.” Women tend to talk circles around a problem until its energy dissipates. So when I hear a girlfriend complain about an ex, “He’s such a jerk!” I don’t think literally, gosh, the man is a complete and unredeemable jerk in every way. I think, “She’s upset by something he did or said recently.” And if she goes back to him, I don’t think, “Women must like guys who are jerks,” I think, “They must have worked out whatever it was.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/90 "2008-10-03T19:22:21Z")
> [@XJETGIRLX](#): > > I have a question for all the so-called “Nice Guys”: Who the hell actually says you’re nice? And where do you get the idea that women don’t like or have relationships with nice guys? > > Next week I am marrying one of the nicest guys I’ve ever known in my entire life. He’s an animal lover, spent a lot of time working with mentally challenged youth, has the patience of a saint, does all the cooking and most of the cleaning around the house, and took time off work to help my mom when she had her stroke. He _calls his own mother just to say hello or ask for a recipe_. Hell, I don’t even do that. > > But I tell you one thing, he would never in a million years consider himself a “Nice Guy.” If you were to ask he’d probably even say he’s a bit of an ass sometimes. It’s because he’s got a healthy perspective on life, and doesn’t think of the world in terms of what he’s owed or why. He doesn’t define himself by what he does for others. He just lives, loves, and tries to enjoy the simple things in life. And **that** is what I find attractive about him. He’s a nice guy, but he’s not a Nice Guy. Heh, being a “nice guy” isn’t an affirmative statement about oneself - more an observation about others: that is, that there are some very nasty fellows out there that appear to have no trouble attracting women - guys who smack their girlfriends and wives around, get drunk and stoned, cheat on their gfs/wives, use them and abuse them - and they come crawling back for more. And then go to the “nice guy” for sympathy on their plight. Now the “nice guy” may have zero interest in these women specifically (and indeed it would be sort of vulture-like to do so), but often they wonder - “why is it that these louts can attract such devotion from “nice women”, but I can’t even get a date”? No no doubt many self-described “nice guys” are just passive-aggressive jerks, or ugly and smelly, or no fun - just like many here insist; indeed I’ve known some who fit that bill. But more generally, they are simply guys who haven figured out the fairly simple secret of human relationships - that, as a generalization, women find firm confidence on the part of men sexy - and this has _nothing whatsoever to do with whether the guy is a good person or not_. Except in this respect - a complete egotistical asshole, the kind of guy who cares nothing for others (and therefore is more likely to be abusive) may _appear_ to have “confidence”, and thus appear sexy - at least at first. Thus, when some guy is complaining that women don’t like “nice guys”, he very often is reacting to the observed fact that women will go for bad fellows - and he knows he’s not 'bad" in that way. What he fails to realize is the mechanism of action, which is not “niceness” or “badness” but “confidence”. The good news for guys is that a guy who really is nice but who lacks confidence can learn to have confidence. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/91 "2008-10-03T19:30:26Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Now the “nice guy” may have zero interest in these women specifically (and indeed it would be sort of vulture-like to do so), but often they wonder - “why is it that these louts can attract such devotion from “nice women”, but I can’t even get a date”? But those aren’t “nice women” - those are - very often, women who are essentially screwed up. My sister dated an abusive jackass for a long time. But she started dating him because he was rich (surprise!) and handsome (surprise!) and charismatic. His innate jerk did not come out until later - and then it evolved slowly over time. By the time you could say “why does she stay with that jerk” the honest truth was that she wasn’t really fit to be with anyone else - her own self-esteem was damaged that much. A “nice guy” wouldn’t have been able to handle her (and since she did get out of the relationship, several “nice guys” have tried - but she really needs to get healthy herself - a “nice guy” cannot do it for her - and if he were to succeed in sticking around, would make it worse for her, not better.). ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/92 "2008-10-03T19:30:27Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > When I love a girl, I value her happiness over my own. Is romance dead? This is the problem. This is not romance, this is being a doormat. Doormat = low self-confidence = unattractive ---
**Author:** ![Influential\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Influential\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Influential_Panda)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/93 "2008-10-03T19:32:01Z")
Here’s the secret: women like what _people_ like. They want you to make them feel special, confirm their personal self-image. They want you to be a scarce resource many people are fighting over, and they have a chance. Work on your people skils, not your women skills. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/94 "2008-10-03T19:38:42Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > But those aren’t “nice women” - those are - very often, women who are essentially screwed up. > > My sister dated an abusive jackass for a long time. But she started dating him because he was rich (surprise!) and handsome (surprise!) and charismatic. His innate jerk did not come out until later - and then it evolved slowly over time. By the time you could say “why does she stay with that jerk” the honest truth was that she wasn’t really fit to be with anyone else - her own self-esteem was damaged that much. A “nice guy” wouldn’t have been able to handle her (and since she did get out of the relationship, several “nice guys” have tried - but she really needs to get healthy herself - a “nice guy” cannot do it for her - and if he were to succeed in sticking around, would make it worse for her, not better.). I’ve seen plenty of really nice women fall for bad fellows (and vice versa). No doubt, over time going out with a bad person has a feedback effect - they will damage their partner’s self-esteem to the point the partner feels they don’t deserve better. But purely as a matter of initial attraction - as a generality, and all else being equal, a man who is confident will have sexual success with women; and often it takes time for women who are inexperienced to tell that this appearence of confidence is derived from, or associated with, an essentially nasty personality. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/95 "2008-10-03T19:42:51Z")
Wow. I’ve read so many painful and sad posts in this thread. I think a lot of women in this thread have suffered greatly due to men who proclaim themselves to be nice. It has taken me by surprise. I’m not going to discuss at the moment… not before my morning cigarette. I’ll be back. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/96 "2008-10-03T19:45:19Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The good news for guys is that a guy who really is nice but who lacks confidence can learn to have confidence. It’s true - but it’s not easy. Sometimes it will tear you right in half. Sometimes in order to find what you need in life, you have to leave it alone and focus on things that have nothing to do with what you want. It helps to be honest with yourself first, of course; otherwise you’ll just feel like it’s a waste. And if you feel it’s a waste, you are 110% gold-plated guaranteed to be right. You have to _really_ master your energies and desires sometimes in life. It feels almost inhuman, sometimes. But you have to listen to your head over your heart, and then behave accordingly. The hard stereotypical male doesn’t have to dominate you, but he has to be in there somewhere, or nothing ever happens. You need to be your own boss. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/97 "2008-10-03T19:54:36Z")
**Fish** speaks great wisdom. We’ve had this thread many times before. Here’s the thing; I’ve known lots of guys who had this same complaint, and the thing is, _none of them were nice guys._ Not that they were necessarily bad people, but all were jerks in their own way and succeeded in being unattractive as a result. I went through high school sans dates and part of university sans dates until I finally started taking some advice about making myself attractive. I didn’t have to change my hairstyle or get a nose job or lose weight - physically I had everything I needed. It was about presentation, attitude and being forthright about your intentions. Next thing you know I was getting dates by the truckload. And I was still a nice guy and a gentleman. **Bricker** is kidding around a little (if he’s not he is my new hero) but what he says is true, too. Women (those who’re worth bothering with) like gentlemen, but they love it when gentlemen take them home and fuck them. It’s crude, but true. Most self-professed “Nice guys” are unconsciously passive-aggressive dolts to whom it never occurs that a woman might want to feel openly romantically and sexually wanted, and they hang around just being friends until, to their amazement, the woman takes their just being friends as meaning that they just want to be friends. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/98 "2008-10-03T20:05:52Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > **Fish** speaks great wisdom. > > We’ve had this thread many times before. Here’s the thing; I’ve known lots of guys who had this same complaint, and the thing is, _none of them were nice guys._ Not that they were necessarily bad people, but all were jerks in their own way and succeeded in being unattractive as a result. > > I went through high school sans dates and part of university sans dates until I finally started taking some advice about making myself attractive. I didn’t have to change my hairstyle or get a nose job or lose weight - physically I had everything I needed. It was about presentation, attitude and being forthright about your intentions. Next thing you know I was getting dates by the truckload. And I was still a nice guy and a gentleman. > > **Bricker** is kidding around a little (if he’s not he is my new hero) but what he says is true, too. Women (those who’re worth bothering with) like gentlemen, but they love it when gentlemen take them home and fuck them. It’s crude, but true. Most self-professed “Nice guys” are unconsciously passive-aggressive dolts to whom it never occurs that a woman might want to feel openly romantically and sexually wanted, and they hang around just being friends until, to their amazement, the woman takes their just being friends as meaning that they just want to be friends. I agree with what you say, but I’m less harsh in my conclusions. For “unconciously passive-agressive dolts” I would often read “lacks self-confidence and fears rejection”. To my mind it doesn’t of necessity make them “jerks” (though of course they may be). It just makes them callow. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/99 "2008-10-03T20:05:53Z")
> [@Influential\_Panda](#): > > Here’s the secret: women like what _people_ like. They want you to make them feel special, confirm their personal self-image. They want you to be a scarce resource many people are fighting over, and they have a chance. Work on your people skils, not your women skills. You are a very wise panda! ---
**Author:** ![accidentalyuppie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@accidentalyuppie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/accidentalyuppie)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282/100 "2008-10-03T20:06:08Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > Wow. I’ve read so many painful and sad posts in this thread. I think a lot of women in this thread have suffered greatly due to men who proclaim themselves to be nice. It has taken me by surprise. I’m not going to discuss at the moment.. not before my morning cigarette. I’ll be back. Girls don’t like you because you are passive aggressive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-girls-why-dont-you-like-nice-guys/466282.md?page=6)