# To all the ignorant people out there - stop making the South out to be some unique villain. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 2, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024 "2015-07-02T04:59:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/421 "2015-07-07T06:34:36Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > To be fair, I will not ever visit New York City overnight even though it is not that far away. If there is one thing The Jeffersons taught me, it is that it is extremely dangerous especially if you wander into the wrong part of Harlem after sunset. Wait…did you just claim to get your information on various parts of the country from _The Jeffersons_? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/422 "2015-07-07T06:57:56Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Bolding mine: one of these things - well, perhaps two, but we’ll leave Native Americans out of this for now - is not like the other. You are actually aware that slave ships didn’t issue a “preferred region” questionnaire; and that the occupants were sold from their own perfectly good homes in Africa and forcibly transported to the South for other people’s reasons: not a whole lot of volition on their part, nor on that of their descendants. Some Hispanics are also of slave descent, especially from the Caribbean (like Dominicans). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/423 "2015-07-07T10:02:23Z")
Shagnasty and at least one other poster just don’t get one very important thing: no matter what else is so good about the South, the government glorification of the racist past, racist present, and the so-called heroes of the confederacy wipes all that out. Think about it. In the South, there are schools and roads and other things named by the government after confederate generals and senior confederate politicians. And the Blacks are supposed to ignore this? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/424 "2015-07-07T10:13:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I would further postulate that the Great Migration is pretty good evidence of whether blacks found the South or North (or California) more hospitable. Sure, blacks were frequently treated like shit north of the Mason-Dixon line. But whites ruled their lives in intimate detail in the Jim Crow South, to the extent that blacks migrating to the North frequently had to sneak out of town, leaving most of their possessions behind, so that the whites who all but owned them wouldn’t know they were going until they were safely out of reach. > > (Cite: Isabel Wilkerson, _The Warmth of Other Suns_. It’s a real eye-opener on how blacks were treated in both South and North during the decades either side of midcentury.) That “Great Migration” took place over 50-100 years ago. Now many blacks have been returning.[LINK](http://melanoidnation.org/why-are-blacks-returning-to-the-south/) ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/425 "2015-07-07T10:25:31Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Bolding mine: one of these things - well, perhaps two, but we’ll leave Native Americans out of this for now - is not like the other. You are actually aware that slave ships didn’t issue a “preferred region” questionnaire; and that the occupants were sold from their own perfectly good homes in Africa and forcibly transported to the South for other people’s reasons: not a whole lot of volition on their part, nor on that of their descendants. Indeed, I suppose it would be downright foolish for modern African Americans to ever want to visit such a vile and despicable part of the country [ever](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/us/25south.html?_r=0) [again](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/02/02/census-great-migration-reversal/21818127/). Thinking more about how to absolve ourselves of the guilt brought on by the actions of our ancestors, it’s really all England’s fault. More specifically it’s the fault of the Church of England and its close ties to the state. If the Pilgrims and Puritans were not driven to America, there would be no King cotton and hence no slave trade. Native Americans would be happier too if we never arrived…and the bison…and the passenger pigeons…and the cod…and… So, I propose that we arm our stealthy Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirits to the gills, sneak over and bomb England off the face of the map. \*Pip pip, cheerio, United Kingdom. You’re welcome cod, et al. \* Ninja’d by Urbanredneck because my internet connection failed… ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/426 "2015-07-07T11:04:48Z")
> [@Tibby or Not Tibby](#): > > Thinking more about how to absolve ourselves of the guilt brought on by the actions of our ancestors, it’s really all England’s fault. More specifically it’s the fault of the Church of England and its close ties to the state. If the Pilgrims and Puritans were not driven to America, there would be no King cotton and hence no slave trade. Native Americans would be happier too if we never arrived…and the bison…and the passenger pigeons…and the cod…and… Nope, sorry, won’t wash. I mean, we’ll cop to a lot of shit we’ve been responsible for over the centuries, but there are limits. It was the Fourth of July just three days ago – you can’t have forgotten already? Anything after 1776 is something you’re just going to have to sort out amongst yourselves. No recrimination without representation, that’s what I say. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/427 "2015-07-07T11:07:25Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Shagnasty and at least one other poster just don’t get one very important thing: no matter what else is so good about the South, the government glorification of the racist past, racist present, and the so-called heroes of the confederacy wipes all that out. Think about it. In the South, there are schools and roads and other things named by the government after confederate generals and senior confederate politicians. And the Blacks are supposed to ignore this? No, they’re supposed to help change it. And with the continuation of the reverse migration south, I believe that will happen sooner than later. What I find just as appalling is the ubiquitous usage of Native American names for all types of things and places in this country. That strikes me as a slap in the face to Native Americans. \*Let’s kill them or move them onto reservations, but they have good names for things, so let’s keep those. \* ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/428 "2015-07-07T11:11:35Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > Nope, sorry, won’t wash. I mean, we’ll cop to a lot of shit we’ve been responsible for over the centuries, but there are limits. It was the Fourth of July just three days ago – you can’t have forgotten already? Anything after 1776 is something you’re just going to have to sort out amongst yourselves. > > No recrimination without representation, that’s what I say. What’s your address? I have a B-2 ready to fly that wants your coordinates. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/429 "2015-07-07T11:40:13Z")
The South-defenders in this thread still are missing the point, I think. It’s not that the South is a terrible place, and Southerners are evil – the South is a great place (as good as any region of the US), and Southerners are fine people (as good as any people in the US). But the place and people aren’t perfect. And the major problem, in my mind, is that so many Southern white people (not all, but many or most) refuse to accept the truth of history – that Southern culture and tradition up until recent decades (and even beyond, in some ways) was dominated by white supremacism, and treated black people abominably, through slavery and a century beyond. And that there is good reason for many people to see the Confederate battle flag as the symbol of this abominable treatment. Not accepting this doesn’t make one evil, but it’s a flaw, and a correctable flaw. Well-meaning people should recognize this flaw and try to correct it. That’s it. The South isn’t bad, and Southerners aren’t bad. But there’s still a problem here. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/430 "2015-07-07T12:29:03Z")
These things only work, in one way, if you look at history. Truth always, by necessity, comes before reconciliation. And there is no truth in the ‘woe is us, you guys should stop propogating the image we’re all slow and racists!’ Your image sucks because it’s the twenty first century and your cities are still littered with recognition and celebration of those who died to enforce the enslavement of others. If you don’t like the image that gives people of who you are, then change it. Stop blaming everybody else and do something about it. If, somewhere in the Germany, there were a town with a Hitler Main Street, Goering Secondary School, and a Nazi flag flying in the town centre they’d be getting the same reactions you are to the pathetic, “no matter how it looks, we’re not Nazi’s!” or “we’re soo misunderstood!” Or “but it’s our culture dating back to …”. Equivocation and bullshit, straight up. This being a new century people have run out of patience, rightly so, I think. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/431 "2015-07-07T13:02:29Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Some reason?” Have you just… not heard of the Civil War or something? It’s the next _Avenger’s_ movie, right? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/432 "2015-07-07T13:07:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Some reason?” Have you just… not heard of the Civil War or something? Of course! It was originally called the war of norther aggression. But as wars go, it was rather polite, battles being watched by women and children from hilltops, mint juleps being sipped on large porches. It was so restrained that they changed the name to the “_Civil_ War”! ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/433 "2015-07-07T13:20:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The South-defenders in this thread still are missing the point, I think. It’s not that the South is a terrible place, and Southerners are evil – the South is a great place (as good as any region of the US), and Southerners are fine people (as good as any people in the US). But the place and people aren’t perfect. And the major problem, in my mind, is that so many Southern white people (not all, but many or most) refuse to accept the truth of history – that Southern culture and tradition up until recent decades (and even beyond, in some ways) was dominated by white supremacism, and treated black people abominably, through slavery and a century beyond. And that there is good reason for many people to see the Confederate battle flag as the symbol of this abominable treatment. Not accepting this doesn’t make one evil, but it’s a flaw, and a correctable flaw. Well-meaning people should recognize this flaw and try to correct it. > > That’s it. The South isn’t bad, and Southerners aren’t bad. But there’s still a problem here. This is a very good assessment. +1 ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/434 "2015-07-07T13:31:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The South-defenders in this thread still are missing the point, I think. It’s not that the South is a terrible place, and Southerners are evil – the South is a great place (as good as any region of the US), and Southerners are fine people (as good as any people in the US). But the place and people aren’t perfect. And the major problem, in my mind, is that so many Southern white people (not all, but many or most) refuse to accept the truth of history – that Southern culture and tradition up until recent decades (and even beyond, in some ways) was dominated by white supremacism, and treated black people abominably, through slavery and a century beyond. And that there is good reason for many people to see the Confederate battle flag as the symbol of this abominable treatment. Not accepting this doesn’t make one evil, but it’s a flaw, and a correctable flaw. Well-meaning people should recognize this flaw and try to correct it. > > That’s it. The South isn’t bad, and Southerners aren’t bad. But there’s still a problem here. Or: And that there is good reason for many people to see the Confederate battle flag as a simple symbol of Southern pride, honor, culture, and hospitality, without a range of racism. Not to mention acting as reminder that states rights is something that the country was built on. Not accepting this doesn’t make one evil, but it’s a flaw, and a correctable flaw. Well-meaning people should recognize this flaw and try to correct it. After all, the flag’s been flying for over 50 my years and the only additional things that have become attached to it is a car on a TV show and Southern rock. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/435 "2015-07-07T13:36:25Z")
Fifty years, huh? Roughly the same as the modern Civil Rights movement. Boy, what a coincidence! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/436 "2015-07-07T13:45:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Or: > > And that there is good reason for many people to see the Confederate battle flag as a simple symbol of Southern pride, honor, culture, and hospitality, without a range of racism. Not to mention acting as reminder that states rights is something that the country was built on. Not accepting this doesn’t make one evil, but it’s a flaw, and a correctable flaw. Well-meaning people should recognize this flaw and try to correct it. > > After all, the flag’s been flying for over 50 my years and the only additional things that have become attached to it is a car on a TV show and Southern rock. The flag returned to prominence in the South as a symbol against Civil Rights, for segregation, and in support of other white supremacist polices and practices. Even if many who fly it don’t see it this way, it’s still extremely obnoxious to do so when so many of one’s neighbors will for rational reasons, and a sign that one is dismissive of the views of black people when it comes to symbols of anti-black racism. Plus you ignored the first few sentences of my post. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/437 "2015-07-07T14:10:53Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > A weird trivia fact is that U.S. state closest to the west African coast is Maine believe it or not. However, there wasn’t much in Maine back then just like there isn’t today so the ships had to sail slightly further south to Boston and Newport. > > I am getting different numbers than you are but it is indisputable that New England was the major slave trading center until the trans-Atlantic trade was abolished and owners had to work with existing stock. > > It looks like Charleston, SC was a major slave trading port at one time as well but New England was the other major point of entry - especially Rhode Island. > > [http://www.tracingcenter.org/resources/background/northern-involvement-in-the-slave-trade/](http://www.tracingcenter.org/resources/background/northern-involvement-in-the-slave-trade/) I don’t know that it matters much in the analysis but the connection between New England and the slave trade was largely the triangle trade. They bought slaves in Africa, traded them in the Caribbean for sugar, brought the sugar to New England to be distilled into rum, took the rum to Africa to trade for slaves, rinse and repeat. Much of the Boston Brahmin wealth was created through the exploitation of slaves. Most of the slaves that worked in America’s south was imported directly into the south. The sin of slavery is a blemish on the ENTIRE nation. The sin of severe discrimination and racism is a blot on the conscience of the entire nation. The continued reverence for the antebellum period and things associated with slavery or the defense of slavery is uniquely southern. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/438 "2015-07-07T14:13:39Z")
50 yrs ago it was called the white man’s banner, by those insisting on flying it. No amount of equivocation, denial or back pedalling changes that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/439 "2015-07-07T14:13:58Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Yes there was. Speaking as someone coming from 400 years of Southern lineage, I think it could best be called ‘not a smooth move’. It hurt and killed a lot of people and was a terrible idea in retrospect. However, Southerners as whole joined the U.S. again and are among the most patriotic of all groups. I know that is a dirty word for many on this board and elswhere but the general idea is sincere. All we ask is that we don’t get ostracized or discriminated against based on our heritage. Everything I have seen in the media in the last ten days or so has been hostile to the South even though it was one asshole killing innocent people and almost everyone would be happy to see him go to prison for life or get executed for it. I don’t think people discriminate against southerners based on heritage any more than they discriminate against South African whites based on heritage. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/440 "2015-07-07T14:21:43Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Yes, my paternal family that I got my last name from arrived at Jamestown in 1615 (well before the Mayflower). They made a very long and slow loop from Virginia towards the South and west over the next 246 years until the Civil War started. My great-x grandfather was drafted and injured. He decided that there was no way he was walking all the way back to Mississippi from Northwestern Louisiana with his foot half-shot off. He stayed there and married a field nurse that took care of him. I have an original picture of him on my kitchen wall. His son went on to found my family’s general store in 1902 in rural Louisiana that lasted until the 1980’s. That is the type of thing I take some family pride in. It really is just a sense of heritage just like Italian-Americans like to talk about the good things about Italy even if their family lived there under Mussolini. > > I grew up in the same small town in rural Louisiana and I still consider myself 100% Southern even though I left to attend Dartmouth in New Hampshire, got trapped by life circumstances and have lived in the Boston area for 20 years. That is one of the things that I disagree strongly with native New Englanders on. The South may have some racial problems but it is fairly well integrated in day to day life. New England and Boston in particular are not. It is the most segregated place that I have ever experienced. People love to talk about racial equality but it is mainly just intellectual and NIMBY. Few people live it. > > That is the reason that I don’t like to hear the unjust complaints. It sounds like hollow hypocrisy to me and I have lots of experience with other areas of the country. They are no better and often worse. I know a German guy. His grandfather was a German soldier during WWII. He was brave and valiant by all accounts. He is justifiably proud of his grandfather’s valor but he is ashamed of the holocaust. So he does not display swastikas or idolize any of the German leaders (except Rommel). Have some shame. Take down the confederate flag and honor the valor of your ancestors but decry the cause for which they fought. I have a cousin that fought in Iraq. I am proud of him and his service but I am not particularly proud of the war in which he fought. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024.md?page=23)