# To Boldly Go Where No Star Trek Franchise Has Gone Before **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 7, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315 "2016-07-07T15:43:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/21 "2016-07-07T21:59:08Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Oh right. Um, I forget why? Is it because the timeline-disruption reboot actually happened with Kirk’s **dad** , before most of the main characters were born? I told you I was confused. Short answer: yes. Long answer: Did you ever see the Next Generation episode “Parallels”? In the greater Star Trek reality, there are many many parallel universes, differing from each other in innumerable tiny and not-so-tiny ways. Nearly all of the various TV series and original movies seem to take place in the same “prime” universe space. It is likely that the multiplicity of highly similar universes resulted from repeated branching, when an event happens and does not happen, or happens two different ways, resulting in both different realities continuing from there. The Mirror Universe episodes take place (partially) in one of the other universes. Lots of things are the same, others are similar but different, kinda twisted. Its history must have diverged from the one we usually see a good while back. The “reboot” movies are taking place in _another_ parallel universe. It’s not the original that we have seen so much of, nor is it the MU. Some call it the Abramsverse, or nuTrek. While there is limited interaction between universes, apart from “old” Spock–the original Spock, as mentioned–all the other characters in are really completely distinct versions of the ones we’ve seen before, just like bearded Mirror Spock is a different person than original Spock. This particular “alternate reality” universe is thought to have branched from the Trek Prime in 2233, near the beginning of that sequence with Kirk’s dad. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/22 "2016-07-07T22:00:39Z")
Oh, but all Sulus can be as gay as you like. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/23 "2016-07-07T22:17:17Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Oh, but all Sulus can be as gay as you like. 😛 Evil Sulu is gay but has a goatee. And it at least one reality I’ll bet Sulu has a thick Appalachian accent. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/24 "2016-07-08T00:28:35Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Long answer: Did you ever see the Next Generation episode “Parallels”? Nope, never watched any Trek except OS and (all) the movies. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > In the greater Star Trek reality, there are many many parallel universes, differing from each other in innumerable tiny and not-so-tiny ways. Nearly all of the various TV series and original movies seem to take place in the same “prime” universe space. It is likely that the multiplicity of highly similar universes resulted from repeated branching, when an event happens and does not happen, or happens two different ways, resulting in both different realities continuing from there. > > The Mirror Universe episodes take place (partially) in one of the other universes. Lots of things are the same, others are similar but different, kinda twisted. Its history must have diverged from the one we usually see a good while back. > > The “reboot” movies are taking place in _another_ parallel universe. It’s not the original that we have seen so much of, nor is it the MU. Some call it the Abramsverse, or nuTrek. While there is limited interaction between universes, apart from “old” Spock–the original Spock, as mentioned–all the other characters in are really completely distinct versions of the ones we’ve seen before, just like bearded Mirror Spock is a different person than original Spock. This particular “alternate reality” universe is thought to have branched from the Trek Prime in 2233, near the beginning of that sequence with Kirk’s dad. Aha, I see, sort of! Yup, confusing, but that helped: thanks! ---
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/25 "2016-07-08T00:46:50Z")
Well, one person isn’t very happy about this tribute to George Takei. [George Takei](http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/george-takei-reacts-gay-sulu-909154). ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/26 "2016-07-08T01:17:32Z")
That was very fitting and a nice nod to George. I would be shocked if there isn’t at least one gay character in the up coming series as well. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/27 "2016-07-08T01:25:09Z")
> [@planetcory](#): > > Well, one person isn’t very happy about this tribute to George Takei. [George Takei](http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/george-takei-reacts-gay-sulu-909154). …for reasons that seem rather incoherent, based on that article. If I were writer/producer, I think I might have ignored his objections too. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/28 "2016-07-08T01:30:56Z")
I understand his feelings about creating a new character instead, but the place to do that would be the new TV series. Revealing Sulu is gay isn’t really changing anything since he didn’t have an established sexuality anyway. Besides, Spock and Uhura are getting it on, so it’s not like this new universe is all canon with the original. He says Sulu must have been in the closet through the whole first series. Well, no. Not the same universe. That would mean Spock and Uhura would be retconned to have been carrying on a closeted relationship throughout the whole original series too. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/29 "2016-07-08T01:37:49Z")
Oh well. George Takei and Sulu are inextricably entangled in the Star Trek universe. Not the universe depicted on screen, the universe of the Star Trek franchise. I hope he can accept the parallel universe concept where the Takei Sulu is straight as Roddenberry imagined it and in the alternate the Cho Sulu is gay. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/30 "2016-07-08T01:58:11Z")
I don’t understand George Takei’s objection at all. He says that Rodenberry would have\* liked\* to portray Sulu as explicitly gay, but felt he could not get away with it because of the social stigma at the time; and in fact Sulu’s sexuality was left ambiguous (one might infer deliberately so, since many other major characters got it on with hot space aliens). So how is it dishonouring Rodenberry’s conception or intention to now boldly reveal Sulu as gay, even forgetting about the parallel universe get-out? It’s not jarring or inconsistent with anything in the _plot_ that has gone before. And it’s not inconsistent with what Rodenberry apparently would have wanted. It’s only inconsistent with what Rodenberry felt he could get away with in the 1970s — and that’s rather the point of doing it now, isn’t it. I think George is just being a cranky old man. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/31 "2016-07-08T06:51:12Z")
Sulu was pretty heterosexual in the original series. Or would have been, if Nimoy hadn’t stolen an episode plot from Takei. It may seem strange to you that Takei is bugged that Sulu is being made gay, but remember: These guys are actors. They’re not their characters. Jim Kirk is vaguely Christian and from Iowa; Shatner is Jewish and from Canada. Leonard Nimoy was from New England, which is not actually another planet. It’s unintentional, I am sure, but it’s insulting to throw out all the work that Gene Roddenberry and George Takei put into Hikaru Sulu (much of which was unfortunately unseen in the show because of Shatner and Nimoy stealing lines and entire plots from the other actors) in favor of making him a version of Takei, even if you think you’re honoring him. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/32 "2016-07-08T07:09:01Z")
The news was reporting on a “movement” to make Captain America gay, which for all I know is just a few guys on Twitter. That made me kind of uncomfortable - they were talking about Steve Rogers, who is pretty well established as heterosexual. While maybe the sentiment is well placed, he can’t choose to become gay. And as Star Trek is Roddenberry’s somewhat idealized society, I can’t imagine that Sulu would’ve had any reason to be closeted. I do like the idea of if they do this, being a non-issue, non-lampshaded thing where if it’s a revelation to any of the crew, it’s only because they haven’t ever asked. Like when Hawkeye revealed he had a family - he’s not Avenging 24/7, but that doesn’t mean that he has to bring up his kids every movie to show that he’s a family man. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/33 "2016-07-08T07:42:33Z")
Garak was pretty clearly gay on his first appearance, but this was dropped in later episodes. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/34 "2016-07-08T11:17:53Z")
The Squire of Gothos was about as straight as Charles Nelson Reilly. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/35 "2016-07-08T11:44:08Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > They tried many times in Star Trek, and it never really got anywhere until DS9. And then it had to be women and connected with some alien stuff where they were different sexes in the past. And they were bisexual, not gay. In “The Host” TNG episode where we first meet the Trill, the reason Dr Crusher gives for breaking off the relationship when Odan’s new host turns out to be female is > [@](#): > > “Perhaps it is a Human failing, but we are not accustomed to these kinds of changes. I can’t keep up. How long will you have this host? What would the next one be? I can’t live with that kind of uncertainty. Perhaps, someday, our ability to love won’t be so limited.” I realize that’s not TOS but it seems a rather blunt message to the audience about being…open-minded…about same-sex relationships, if nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/36 "2016-07-08T12:39:27Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > All I can say is, it’s about time! And for it to be Sulu is a wonderful tribute to Takei. Cannot say I agree with that sentiment. Its pandering. Sulu is portrayed as straight in the original series. Takei’s orientation is irrelevant one way or the other as respects the character. Would have been better if they had introduced a new character who was gay. Been more organic. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/37 "2016-07-08T12:43:16Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Garak was pretty clearly gay on his first appearance, but this was dropped in later episodes. :dubious: Why would an alien have sexual identities based upon Victorian England? It makes as much sense as the (probably apocryphal) stories of excitement about Tuvaok being the first African-American Vulcan. I’ll agree that his (Garak’s) actor portrayed him as having an attraction to Bashir, what kind of attraction it was is left to the audience. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/38 "2016-07-08T12:58:44Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Sulu was pretty heterosexual in the original series. Or would have been, if Nimoy hadn’t stolen an episode plot from Takei. Which one was that? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/39 "2016-07-08T13:21:09Z")
I took Takei’s issue with it to be more of the ‘reveal’ that Sulu is gay (aka ‘coming out’) vs him just already being established as such. As others have said, since only in Mirror-Mirror did his sexuailty ever seem explicit, I can get that he ‘always was, just not stated’ - but that still then seems like a ‘coming out’ stunt vs anything else. His having a daughter in Generations isn’t problematic since his SO is not specifically mentioned. TBH, it feels like a ‘stunt’ to me as well - that they are doing it to get attention - vs just having chars ‘be’ gay. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/40 "2016-07-08T13:27:27Z")
If I were Takei, I’d be insulted too. You finally put a gay character in after 50 years of Star Trek, and it’s a recon of the character played by the one major gay actor in the series? So as long as Takei was closeted, Sul was straight, but now that he’s out, Sulu has to be gay? Real complement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315.md?page=3)