# To Boldly Go Where No Star Trek Franchise Has Gone Before **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 7, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315 "2016-07-07T15:43:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/61 "2016-07-08T21:20:39Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Making that character Sulu (rather than some other random character) was intended to be a fourth-wall-breaking moment, to honor the actor who played him in the original’s present-day actions as an activist for gay inclusion. Maybe, but we live in a world where, when Sean Hayes was announced as the romantic lead in the “Promises, Promises” revival, people publicly wondered if he were “virile” enough for it, and where Newsweek said of openly gay actor Jonathan Groff in his role as Rachel’s boyfriend in the show Glee: > [@](#): > > But on TV, as the shifty glee captain from another school who steals Rachel’s heart, there’s something about his performance that feels off. In half his scenes he scowls—is that a substitute for being straight? When he smiles or giggles, he seems more like your average theater queen, a better romantic match for Kurt than for Rachel. It doesn’t help that he tried to bed his girlfriend while singing (and writhing to) Madonna’s “Like a Virgin.” He is so distracting I’m starting to wonder if Groff’s character on the show is supposed to be secretly gay. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/62 "2016-07-08T21:29:05Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Maybe, but we live in a world where, when Sean Hayes was announced as the romantic lead in the “Promises, Promises” revival, people publicly wondered if he were “virile” enough for it, and where Newsweek said of openly gay actor Jonathan Groff in his role as Rachel’s boyfriend in the show Glee: There’s no doubt prejudice exists and is a real thing. However, I’m talking about what actually motivated this _particular_ decision. Here’s an article about that: > [@](#): > > Highlighting the sexuality of the USS Enterprise helmsman was actually the idea of Pegg and director Justin Lin, both of whom wanted to pay respect to Takei’s legacy as a sci-fi icon and LGBT activist. But Takei told The Hollywood Reporter that he thought it was “really unfortunate” that the filmmakers had turned to Sulu instead of introducing a new character. > > “He’s right, it is unfortunate, it’s unfortunate that the screen version of the most inclusive, tolerant universe in science fiction hasn’t featured an LGBT character until now," added Pegg. "We could have introduced a new gay character, but he or she would have been primarily defined by their sexuality, seen as the ‘gay character’, rather than simply for who they are, and isn’t that tokenism?” > > Pegg said that he, Lin and Doug Jung “loved” the idea of the gay character being someone already known, ensuring that the audience already had a “pre-existing opinion” of them as a “human being,” and therefore unaffected by any prejudice. > > “Their sexual orientation is just one of many personal aspects, not the defining characteristic,” he added. "Also, the audience would infer that there has been an LGBT presence in the Trek universe from the beginning (at least in the Kelvin timeline), that a gay hero isn’t something new or strange. It’s also important to note that at no point do we suggest that our Sulu was ever closeted, why would he need to be? It’s just hasn’t come up before.” [Emphasis added] > **[Simon Pegg: I “Respectfully Disagree” With George Takei on Gay Sulu](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/simon-pegg-i-respectfully-disagree-909283/)** > > The 'Star Trek Beyond' actor and co-writer responded to Takei's remarks about making his old character openly gay. I don’t have any reason to doubt that was the intention. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/63 "2016-07-08T21:39:41Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Why could not Scotty be gay. Or Chekov? Or Uhura? The one TOS character who is outed as gay just happened to be played by a gay man. That does not seem honouring to me. The one TOS character is outed as gay BECAUSE he was played by a gay man. Also, George Takei is an extremely prominent gay rights activist. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/64 "2016-07-08T21:47:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Oh, right. Errrr… trends in personality, home environment, schooling, etc., more robust than pre-natal hormones influencing sexual orientation? Cite of identical twin pairs sometimes having different sexual orientations, presumably due to small epigenomic differences, despite being identical genetically and very alike in other ways? > > That’s all I got. Nah, it’s way easier: Sulu in both universes is bi. In the original universe, he happened to meet a woman and marry her. In the new universe, he never met that particular woman, and ended up with a guy instead. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/65 "2016-07-08T22:01:16Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > The one TOS character is outed as gay BECAUSE he was played by a gay man. I don’t think “outed” is being used properly here. Sulu isn’t being outed. He’s just gay. The Romulans aren’t going to blackmail him for Federation secrets. He isn’t hiding anything and has nothing to be ashamed of. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/66 "2016-07-08T23:07:04Z")
Now, as for Takei. His actual logic makes no sense–why would it hurt Gene if the character he talked about making gay got made gay? As for the other explanations here, all of them require assumptions that do not need to be made. Sulu may not have been gay in TOS, and, if he was, it doesn’t mean he was closeted. Just that they couldn’t show it onscreen. If anything, the fact that it was ambiguous points to him being gay rather than otherwise when Trek aired. I also note that having a new character is pretty much impossible to do while making them a main character. The other characters are either a possible love interest, which doesn’t work without another gay main, or a villain, which has horrible history. So yo’ure otherwise stuck with supporting characters. I do not in any way understand how having your character being used in a social justice thing would be a bad thing unless you were against social justice. I would regard such an attitude to be selfish. Society matters more than my personal feelings. I am actually disheartened by finding out that Takei is against this. If any of the reasons given above were it, I’d be lambasting him the same way I do bigots who try to say that those against bigotry are the real bigots. But, since all he said was that it was a dishonor to Gene, I’ll just say it makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/67 "2016-07-08T23:13:16Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The news was reporting on a “movement” to make Captain America gay Actually, the movement is to give him a boyfriend. Subtle but important distinction. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/68 "2016-07-08T23:18:03Z")
I get what Pegg was saying. But it does play into the unfortunate tendency of American TV fans to conflate actors and characters, a problem that’s been notorious in Trekkie-dom for decades. It is a bit like suddenly revealing that James T. Kirk is Jewish and wears a toupee. So, I understand why Takei is not thrilled with it. Sulu’s been living in his head for longer than I’ve been alive. It’s got to be uncomfortable to have all his dreams of swashbuckling Starfleet officer Sulu tossed out for, “The gay guy who pilots the ship for Jim and Spock.” In the final cuts of everything, Sulu as a supporting player hasn’t gotten to do much. But if Hikaru Sulu were real, he would have had his own career and moved on from the Enterprise, as Takei keeps saying. (George Takei was talking about his dream of a Captain Sulu spinoff when I was a kid.) Oh, and I think Jim and Spock were, for all that they were ostensibly straight, played much gayer in the original series than Sulu; and even gayer than that in the movies, since Shatner & Nimoy were very aware of the K/S fandom and deliberately played up the ho yay. (Granted, Sulu’s characterization was basically “inscrutable.” 😛 ) So, yeah, this is a little weird. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/69 "2016-07-09T01:22:03Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t have any reason to doubt that was the intention. It doesn’t matter. It still feels a lot like an insult. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/70 "2016-07-09T05:17:44Z")
If they had to honor George Takei, they could have given him a role in the film, maybe as a out homosexual. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/71 "2016-07-10T06:51:49Z")
IMHO, if Trekkies can ignore the existence of “Spock’s Brain”, they can ignore Sulu’s homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/72 "2016-07-10T07:03:26Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yes, it does say that homosexuality should be okay. However, it also says that humans are still completely homophobic and that such is a flaw in humanity. Beverly doesn’t say it’s a problem with her, but with humans in general. > > It actually takes some logic to work around it. That the flaw is that humans still have sexual orientation in general, which is an odd message. Or that Beverly was speaking for herself, and kinda covering things up. > > It’s often cited as a way that TNG got the whole thing messed up despite trying to do well, just like that one episode where an asexual species has a woman who likes Riker, but chooses to be brainwashed back into being asexual. Ok…from what i remember you’re missing both eps here. In “The Host”, Bev says it’s all just too much too fast. She just can’t keep adapting. In the Riker ep…she doesn’t “Choose” to be brainwashed…she’s forced to. Riker was going to kidnap her, but they got her first. Unless she did it quickly to save Riker’s career. Either way she was going to get brainwashed against her wishes. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/73 "2016-07-10T10:38:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > IMHO, if Trekkies can ignore the existence of “Spock’s Brain”, they can ignore Sulu’s homosexuality. What I meant to say was that they can ignore Sulu’s _hetrosexuality_. As in, the few times that Sulu showed an interest in women in TOS could easily be retconned away like so many other things before. Man, I screwed that one up, didn’t I? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/74 "2016-07-10T11:08:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Man, I screwed that one up, didn’t I? Just like the producers of the new film. And I don’t mean just the Sulu gayness. They promoted Kirk from Ensign to Captain in how many minutes? 10? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/75 "2016-07-10T14:38:22Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Just like the producers of the new film. And I don’t mean just the Sulu gayness. > > They promoted Kirk from Ensign to Captain in how many minutes? 10? Not even ensign. IIRC he was still a cadet. Nothing like a battlefield promotion to jumpstart your career. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/76 "2016-07-10T14:43:04Z")
Zachary ‘New Spock’ Quinto disagrees with Takei, he thinks the use of a gay character is an important message, and though I didn’t see it explicitly in his statement I think he finds the message to me more important than the medium. I think there’s room for disagreement here, but I see it either way as an overall positive. Also, I’d think in the Star Trek future we wouldn’t see this as an issue of strict alignment of sexuality anyway. We would see bisexuality or changes in sexual preference over a lifetime to be more common, as well as parenting relationships that aren’t necessarily sexually oriented. Also with my recent acquisition of a real communicator and participation in this thread is making me look like a Trekkie, have to avoid falling over that cliff. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/77 "2016-07-10T15:19:57Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Just like the producers of the new film. And I don’t mean just the Sulu gayness. > > They promoted Kirk from Ensign to Captain in how many minutes? 10? To be fair, he did save the entire planet. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/78 "2016-07-10T15:28:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > To be fair, he did save the entire planet. Well, it’s not like they don’t have others… ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/79 "2016-07-10T16:54:30Z")
I don’t agree with Takei, but I think I can grok where he’s coming from. (SWIDT?) I wonder if, instead of presenting this as a “tribute” to Takei (which does smell a bit like conflating the character and the actor, something Spock–er, Nimoy famously used to get quite miffed about), they had simply said, “We wanted a gay major character, and chose the only one without a clearly established sexual identity,” that would have gotten his approval. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315/80 "2016-07-10T19:20:38Z")
Well, since Zachary Quinto is gay I guess we need a gay Spock, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-boldly-go-where-no-star-trek-franchise-has-gone-before/759315.md?page=5)