# To comma or not to comma: "Same old, same old"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 5, 2012, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-comma-or-not-to-comma-same-old-same-old/611849 "2012-02-05T09:50:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-comma-or-not-to-comma-same-old-same-old/611849/1 "2012-02-05T09:50:22Z")
Is the expression _same old, same old_ or _same old same old_? I like the comma – I _hear_ it, y’know? And that’s usually my standard (when definitive rules are lacking, anyway). What do y’all think? Any cites would be greatly appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-comma-or-not-to-comma-same-old-same-old/611849/2 "2012-02-05T09:59:12Z")
My intuition favors having the comma there, but I am not sure how to justify it (and I know I’m inclined to overuse the darn things). ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-comma-or-not-to-comma-same-old-same-old/611849/3 "2012-02-05T10:15:56Z")
No comma. It is the same old same old. ---
**Author:** ![BeaMyra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@BeaMyra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeaMyra)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-comma-or-not-to-comma-same-old-same-old/611849/4 "2012-02-05T12:19:03Z")
I’m not sure if it really belongs but I think anytime a sentence could possibly be confusing to a reader you do need a comma to be sure of no confusion. After all, that is the idea behind grammar to make sure what you say, is the same thing people read. Either that or rewrite the sentence to avoid the phrase ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-comma-or-not-to-comma-same-old-same-old/611849/5 "2012-02-05T16:33:57Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > No comma. It is the same old same old. This. The first same old modifies the second same old. Otherwise you would have to write modifiers as the sky was bright, blue. Very, very old is different and requires the comma because both verys modify old and the rule is to separate a string of modifiers with commas. Same old same old has a single modifier. Therefore no comma. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-comma-or-not-to-comma-same-old-same-old/611849/6 "2012-02-05T16:39:19Z")
No comma. The second ‘same old’ is a thing. (Personally, I’d write it as ‘the same old same-old’.) You’re saying ‘It’s the same old same-old-thing.’ Replace the second same old with ‘thing’ and insert a comma, and you have ‘It’s the same old, thing.’ So no comma. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-comma-or-not-to-comma-same-old-same-old/611849/7 "2012-02-05T16:47:15Z")
Interesting. This is not at all the way I interpreted the expression. I would have said “same old, same old”, meaning that the speaker is naming the “same old” thing twice, along the lines of “meet the new boss, same as the old boss”. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-comma-or-not-to-comma-same-old-same-old/611849/8 "2012-02-05T16:57:38Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Interesting. This is not at all the way I interpreted the expression. I would have said “same old, same old”, meaning that the speaker is naming the “same old” thing twice, along the lines of “meet the new boss, same as the old boss”. Same here. The “same-old same old” (or “same-old, same-old” or “same old, same-old”) does make sense, but my brain has always parsed it as repetition, as “same old, same old.” I admit, the “same-old same old” makes better sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-comma-or-not-to-comma-same-old-same-old/611849/9 "2012-02-05T18:26:54Z")
If it’s narration, or dialogue, use commas to denote the speech pattern, without regard to punctuation rules. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-comma-or-not-to-comma-same-old-same-old/611849/10 "2012-02-05T18:40:19Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > No comma. It is the same old same old. This is how I would normally use it. Unless I used a comma if I were to denote the second same old as an appositive, which I probably would not do. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-comma-or-not-to-comma-same-old-same-old/611849/11 "2012-02-05T19:58:05Z")
I’d write “oh; this shit again.” I also agree with **TriPolar**. The phrase is a colloquialism, so all bets are off grammar-wise. Yeah, yeah (yeah!), follow basic construction, but if you put it in anything formal where you’re adhering to strict punctuation rules you should have your word processor taken away and given a box of crayons. Feel free to use it, but don’t get hung up on the mechanical aspects of punctuation–if you want the reader to hear a pause, use a, comma. See what I did there? ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-comma-or-not-to-comma-same-old-same-old/611849/12 "2012-02-05T20:01:13Z")
Wow, thanks guys. Until **Richard Pearce** and **Exapno Mapcase** replied, I hadn’t really thought about the meaning of the phrase (very embarrassing for a writer), but now I have to agree: even though I hear the comma, it doesn’t belong there. The first “Same old” is sort of an adjectival phrase modifying the second pair of words, because I suppose the full sentence would really be “It’s the same old same old.” The fact that it’s usually truncated it to “same old same old” made me lose track of its meaning. I too had been thinking of it as the same sort of phrase as… if you’ll excuse the crudity… “same crap, different asshole” or, as mentioned above, Mr. Townshend’s exhortation for us to “meet the new boss, same as the old boss.” But no. The phrase in full would be “(It’s the) same old same old.” As in “It’s the (adjective) (noun).” So that really does clear it up. I suppose if one were writing a phrase where _both_ “same olds” were being repeated for emphasis to modify a different word – such as “That jerk is the same old, same old liar he’s always been” – one might add a comma, right? But that’s not what’s happening here. (And btw, yep, this phrase occurs in my narrative, not dialogue, so yeah, even though it is in fairly tight third person POV, I’m not really trying to express the thoughts as the POV character would literally say them aloud.) **Exapno** , you’ve come to my rescue before with some of my queries, so you get a little extra gratitude. But everyone gets kudos for responding – thanks! ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-comma-or-not-to-comma-same-old-same-old/611849/13 "2012-02-05T21:55:18Z")
No comma. The first “same old” is modifying the second “same old,” so a comma would make as much sense as “red, house.”