# To Death Penalty Opponents **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369 "2010-12-08T02:25:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/81 "2010-12-08T18:59:23Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > The former. I don’t trust cops, lawyers or judges to have the power over life and death. I’ve never understood the people who won’t trust the government to handle money because they’re so incompetent but will trust the government to handle deciding who lives and who dies. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/82 "2010-12-08T19:01:59Z")
Not another thread about life after death, _please_. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’ve never understood the people who won’t trust the government to handle money because they’re so incompetent but will trust the government to handle deciding who lives and who dies. To them it’s probably _not_ the government who decides who lives and who dies - it’s other citizens. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/83 "2010-12-08T19:35:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Not another thread about life after death, _please_. > To them it’s probably _not_ the government who decides who lives and who dies - it’s other citizens. That’s true. If only the government were made up of citizens… 😃 Okay, no more hijacks from me. ---
**Author:** ![FasterThanMeerkats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@FasterThanMeerkats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FasterThanMeerkats)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/84 "2010-12-08T19:54:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You have none, so we’ll just assume that there isn’t any. Whoa, now you’re the one positing. Death is a black box, so using any assumption on what the box contains (e.g. happiless oblivion) to draw conclusions seems flawed. I’ll meet you halfway and not mention my mansion blueprints and luxury accomodations in my future after-life if we can agree we both have zero proof of anything (including oblivion). > [@Lobohan](#): > > Prison sucks. But so long as someone is alive and innocent, some level of recompense is possible. Which is impossible as long as they are dead. Well… there’s the undeniable crux. Some recompense is possible. Obviously full recompense is not. And yes.. prison sucks.. ☹ Yarr!!! Snap, Crackle, Pop!😉 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/85 "2010-12-08T20:57:09Z")
I believe that the lives of all persons have inherent value. Some might have more value than others, and I’d be willing to stipulate, for the sake of argument, that the life of a murderer has less value than that of an innocent, but all else being equal, a live murderer (who can’t possibly murder again) is a better state than a dead murderer. As for the deterrent argument, if for some reason I wanted to commit a murder (I don’t), then I would want to do it in Texas. Why? Because in Texas, I’d just have to lay low for a little while and wait for someone to get convicted and executed for it, and case closed, I’m off scott-free. In civilized places, though, even if they convict and imprison someone else for the crime, there’s always the chance that they’ll be found innocent by some new evidence and the case re-opened. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/86 "2010-12-08T21:28:16Z")
> [@BigBadWolf](#): > > I am surprised there is not more opposition to the death penalty given that innocent people could be and likely already have been executed by the state. Death penalty supporters as a rule either refuse to believe it happens or don’t seem to care. > [@Kearsen](#): > > I’d be firmly against the death penalty if imprisoning criminals was a better deterrent. > > The prison system of today is a joke of a deterrent (when it could do a far greater service to itself and our justice system as a whole) There’s no evidence that the death penalty IS a deterrent. If anything it seems correlated with higher murder rates. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/87 "2010-12-09T02:49:07Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Add also the fact that we always seem to be making exceptions. This person shouldn’t be executed because he is retarded. That would be a no brainer, I would think. (And in any case, there HAVE been cases of retarded individuals being executed) **Der Trihs** , or when they acknowledge it, it’s simply, “well, it’s bound to happen, and it’s unfortunate, but that’s the price we pay…” Sort of an “oh well, that’s life.” That’s why I always point out – would YOU be willing to be that innocent person? ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/88 "2010-12-09T23:26:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s not an oxymoron; people use phrases like “the Nazis/Communists/etc murdered millions of people” regardless of whether or not the murderous governments in question bothered to make their killings officially legal. Murder is often used to refer to immoral killings as well as illegal ones. Yep my point, better explained than I could. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/89 "2010-12-12T04:20:49Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Add also the fact that we always seem to be making exceptions. This person shouldn’t be executed because he is retarded. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > That would be a no brainer, I would think. I saw what you did, there. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/90 "2010-12-12T04:51:03Z")
“The state” kills _way_ more innocent people in war than through the death penalty. Yet most people accept war as necessary in some circumstances. Do all of the opponents of the death penalty on the grounds that innocent people are killed also object to war? I don’t even want to begin to count how many totally innocent people were minding their own business and then were blown to bits by bombs. As for the idea of it being wrong for “the state” to have the power to end someone’s life, how is this really any worse than “the state” having the power to lock someone up in a room for fifty years? No sane person, outside of the context of the penal system, would keep someone locked up in a room for fifty years, and anyone who actually did this would be deemed a sadistic monster. Yet “the state” does it to other people, as well as throwing vulnerable young inmates into a lion’s den of rape and brutality that will permanently shatter their minds. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/91 "2010-12-12T05:02:18Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > I’ve never seen a map like this and it’s sealed my opinion on the matter. Primarily because I see that the crimes “deserving” execution are so subjective depending on the culture. Here we may cheer a murderer being put to death whereas in another country they cheer when adulterers are stoned. We simply do not have the capacity to KNOW if killing anyone as a punishment is the right thing. It doesn’t help bring down violent crime. It obviously doesn’t keep serial murderers from murdering. It’s completely useless except to satisfy blood lust retaliation. But after living in death row so many years that blood lust weakens unless people are pumped up again by the media, reminding us why we should be happy this cop killer or that baby rapist should not continue taking up our precious breathing room. > > It makes us (as a nation) much like that serial killer, making a decision on who his next victim will be. I’m sure he has his reasons for his execution choices too. > > And yes it also bothers me that we (as a nation)have executed those who were posthumously exonerated. It certainly would suck to be forced to live in prison and suffer prison life for years and then be found not guilty, but there is room for second chances. I imagine those people are grateful to have that chance, even if prison has hardened them. The fact is, dead people don’t get second chances. Maybe their spirit will soar to the land of angels or whatever your religion teaches, but on this earth their time is done and the ones left behind are the ones who will live with that knowledge. > > Yup I got all that from that map. I’ve never really thought about it much before so forgive me if my ideas here are all messed up. The map simply shows who we are. It shows nations who are like us. We do not respect life very much. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/92 "2010-12-12T15:28:51Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > “The state” kills _way_ more innocent people in war than through the death penalty. Yet most people accept war as necessary in some circumstances. Do all of the opponents of the death penalty on the grounds that innocent people are killed also object to war? I don’t even want to begin to count how many totally innocent people were minding their own business and then were blown to bits by bombs. The key is the _some circumstances_ qualifier. I am an opponent of capital punishment and I am also an opponent of wars of aggression and conquest. I do, however, believe that it is not immoral for one to kill to protect themselves and/or their family from grave and/or mortal harm. In the same way, I am not opposed to states entering into wars to defend their shores and/or culture. The state is obligated to protect its people, and to some extent, its allies. Ergo, I believe Japan and Germany’s entrance into WWII were wrong, whereas the U.S. and Great Britain’s was necessary and moral. I also believe that targeting civilians on either side is wrong and though I realize that collateral damage is difficult to avoid completely, it is morally imperative that states avoid directly killing civilians. As an example, I believe the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was very wrong and immoral, regardless of the facts that a) we were defending ourselves and b) it had enormous impact on ending Japan’s aggression. > [@](#): > > As for the idea of it being wrong for “the state” to have the power to end someone’s life, how is this really any worse than “the state” having the power to lock someone up in a room for fifty years? No sane person, outside of the context of the penal system, would keep someone locked up in a room for fifty years, and anyone who actually did this would be deemed a sadistic monster. Yet “the state” does it to other people, as well as throwing vulnerable young inmates into a lion’s den of rape and brutality that will permanently shatter their minds. The state has an obligation to protect its citizens. It does so through it’s laws and enforcement of those laws. In carrying out that obligation, it becomes necessary to separate destructive and dangerous individuals from society and remove their ability to endanger citizens. That doesn’t give the state the right to take their lives, however. For the state to do so is to permanently remove the right of the accused/convicted to seek review and redress of their case. As to your “lion’s den” argument, you’ll get no argument from me. The state’s obligation to protect its citizens does not cease with incarceration of some of those citizens. Incarcerated individuals also ought to be protected by the state from harm and that they often are more susceptible to being harmed while incarcerated is a strong argument for prison reform – not for capital punishment. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/93 "2010-12-12T16:01:40Z")
Agreed with Brown Eyed Girl. The state killing anyone should be as a last resort when all other options are exhausted. If I were in a situation like “Lost,” capital punishment might be the only way to protect the survivors from a murderer. We wouldn’t have the resources to do otherwise. But the US and the rest of the west has the resources to do otherwise. When we execute someone, it’s because we’re choosing to do so, not because we are being forced. And the wars we’ve been in lately are also because we’re choosing to kill people rather than being forced to do so to protect ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/94 "2010-12-12T22:56:34Z")
Death is a worse penalty than life in prison if the accused happens to be innocent. Life in prison is a worse penalty than death if the accused is guilty. If police and prosecutors were subject to the death penalty if it were shown that they engaged in misconduct that resulted in a wrongful capital conviction, then I might be less opposed to the death penalty. As it stands, the bar is very high for proving this, and the usual punishment seems to be at most a forced change of career direction, and often not even that. Seems like a lack of accountability to me. Seriously, when a cop lies under oath, or prosecutor withholds exculpatory evidence in order to obtain a capitol verdict they should be subject to the same risk they are imposing on the victim of their malfeasance. The current state of affairs seems to be that if the cops are convinced of guilt, then they pretty much do whatever they can get away with to assure a conviction. If these folks think the death penalty is such a great idea, let it loom over their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/95 "2010-12-12T23:23:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The above is wrong, of course. [Cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Keith_Coleman#Subsequent_examination_of_evidence), not that it will do any good. ## Now that you have been proven wrong, do I take it that you would advocate the establishment of a systematic program that would investigate claims of innocence posthumously? It wouldn’t have to be publicly funded, though subpoena power would be necessary. Or were you just making a baseless wisecrack? OP: More the latter than the former. The death penalty does not appear to be a cost-effective method of advancing public safety. This is an empirical observation. If the evidence shifted, I’d be willing to change my mind.\* I support the death penalty in narrow circumstances such as national security: I have Nicolae Ceauşescu of Romania in mind. Politically motivated execution is not without its disadvantages: it can morph into a Soviet-style purge. Another aspect is that I recognize is that I have a more clinical perspective than most. Finally, **Qin Shi Huangdi** : Perhaps you might experiment with putting more _time_ and _humility_ into your threads. Write a first draft, then try to anticipate some possible objections to it. Then address them. Then print it out and read it over the next day. Throw in a disclaimer or softener and see what happens. - Incidentally, some of the evidence has shifted, but I have not seen a systematic evaluation of it. IIRC, the strength of the some of the studies fall short of decisive, which is frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/96 "2010-12-13T00:58:29Z")
If taking a life is wrong, and I think that’s true, then the state is wrong to do it. Two wrongs and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369/97 "2010-12-13T02:25:53Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I saw what you did, there. You know what? I actually did not intend that. :o Heh. However, there HAVE been cases of the mentally retarded being executed, and I find it despicable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-death-penalty-opponents/563369.md?page=4)