# To Dishonest "Christians" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2018, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019 "2018-04-08T09:52:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/61 "2018-04-12T11:33:04Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > […] the separation of church and state (which, while it’s not a constitutional principle other than in the US,[…]) I didn’t know that. It looks as if you’ve got a major Wikipedia rewrite to do, then: > [@](#): > > The Constitution of Australia prevents the Commonwealth from establishing any religion or requiring a religious test for any office > […] > Article 7 of the Constitution defines the Azerbaijani state as a democratic, legal, secular, unitary republic. > […] > The current Constitution of Brazil, in force since 1988, ensures the right to religious freedom, bans the establishment of state churches and any relationship of “dependence or alliance” of officials with religious leaders, except for “collaboration in the public interest, defined by law”. > […] > The Constitution of the People’s Republic of China guarantees, in its article 36, that: “[…] No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens who believe in, or do not believe in, any religion. […] No one may make use of religion to engage in activities that disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the state. Religious bodies and religious affairs are not subject to any foreign domination.” > […] > Freedom of religion in Croatia is a right defined by the Constitution, which also defines all religious communities as equal in front of the law and separated from the state. Principle of separation of church and state is enshrined in Article 41 > […] > In Italy the principle of separation of church and state is enshrined in Article 7 of the Constitution > […] > Freedom of religion in South Korea is provided for in the South Korean constitution, which mandates the separation of religion and state > […] > In Article II “Declaration of Principles and State Policies”, Section 6, the 1987 Constitution of the Philippines declares, “The separation of Church and State shall be inviolable.” > […] > Since 1978, according to the Spanish Constitution (section 16.3) “No religion shall have a state character. The public authorities shall take into account the religious beliefs of Spanish society and shall consequently maintain appropriate cooperation relations with the Catholic Church and other confessions.” > **[Separation of church and state | In various countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state#In_various_countries)** > > Countries have varying degrees of separation between government and religious institutions. Since the 1780s a number of countries have set up explicit barriers between church and state. The degree of actual separation between government and religion or religious institutions varies widely. In some countries the two institutions remain heavily interconnected. There are new conflicts in the post-Communist world.\[clarification needed\] ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/62 "2018-04-12T11:57:51Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > I don’t mean those who cheat or steal. > > I do mean the ones who claim to “believe” shit that no sane person - barely even any _in_sane people - could honestly believe. > > Examples: > > - God is a being who exists somewhere > > - all the details in the Bible are true > > - Jesus came back to life after being dead for three days > > - if you pray, God will respond > > - there’s a savior > > I’m not saying you’re wrong; that goes without saying. What I am saying is: You’re full of shit. You don’t believe those things, you never did, every time you say them you know you’re lying, and every time you hear someone else say them you know either they’re lying just like you or they’re fucking morons, and it hardly matters which is which, cause the effect is about the same. At least stupid people have an excuse - you don’t. Shhhhh…back away slowly… slowly… now RUN!.. before he finds out about what the Muslims believe! ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/63 "2018-04-12T12:19:32Z")
I think it a mistake to allow a small minority of extremists to govern our view of an entire group of people. Yes, there are people out there calling themselves Christians who will tell you that you are going to hell because you are an atheist and, yes, it will rightfully enrage you. The fact is, however, that the large majority of practicing Christians are not at all like that and do not deserve that level of vitriol. It’s like hating a billion Muslims because a few thousand are horrible people. Christians who actually understand what it is that they purportedly believe realize that how they live their lives and treat others has a far greater influence on people than trying to beat them to death with dogma, and it makes them far better ambassadors of their faith. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/64 "2018-04-12T12:50:17Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > …I do mean the ones who claim to “believe” shit that no sane person - barely even any _in_sane people - could honestly believe… I always wondered who was in charge of who may believe what. And all this time it was **DavidwithanR**. Who knew? mmm ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/65 "2018-04-12T13:15:40Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Because they wield the most political power in this country. AND because these ones making all the noise and grabbing the power are a bunch of God damned liars and hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/66 "2018-04-12T13:18:29Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I think it a mistake to allow a small minority of extremists to govern our view of an entire group of people. Yes, there are people out there calling themselves Christians who will tell you that you are going to hell because you are an atheist and, yes, it will rightfully enrage you. The fact is, however, that the large majority of practicing Christians are not at all like that and do not deserve that level of vitriol. It’s like hating a billion Muslims because a few thousand are horrible people. > > Christians who actually understand what it is that they purportedly believe realize that how they live their lives and treat others has a far greater influence on people than trying to beat them to death with dogma, and it makes them far better ambassadors of their faith. But they are not the ones currently infesting every level of right wing media and government. One of them is the Vice President for chrissake. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/67 "2018-04-12T15:04:28Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I think it a mistake to allow a small minority of extremists to govern our view of an entire group of people. Yes, there are people out there calling themselves Christians who will tell you that you are going to hell because you are an atheist and, yes, it will rightfully enrage you. The fact is, however, that the large majority of practicing Christians are not at all like that and do not deserve that level of vitriol. It’s like hating a billion Muslims because a few thousand are horrible people. > > Christians who actually understand what it is that they purportedly believe realize that how they live their lives and treat others has a far greater influence on people than trying to beat them to death with dogma, and it makes them far better ambassadors of their faith. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest that christians believe what they believe, or anyone at all believes whatever they want to believe. It is when they push for legislation and social changes based on their beliefs that secularists need to stand up and resist. When secularists resist the changes that are being pushed by the christians who want to see the country run in a more theocratic way, they villainize the secularists, and claim that the more mainstream christians are on their side when they push for their agendas. And, keep in mind also, that many of these very vocal “christians” also do hate all Muslims because of a the actions of small minority of their population. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/68 "2018-04-12T15:59:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It is when they push for legislation and social changes based on their beliefs that secularists need to stand up and resist. The problem isn’t “pushing for legislation and social changes based on their beliefs”—_everybody_ who pushes for legislation and social changes does so because of their beliefs, unless they’re doing so out of sheer self-interest. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/69 "2018-04-12T16:18:18Z")
And as I pointed out before, the vast majority of the leaders of the American Civil Rights movement were black ministers and pastors, who used the language of religion to push for the end of segregation. President Obama has mentioned his faith and religious beliefs when pushing for the ACA or accepting Syrian refugees. I think it’s a bit simplistic to claim folks need to stand up against religious people when religious people push for legislation and social change on the basis of their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/70 "2018-04-12T16:25:34Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > The problem isn’t “pushing for legislation and social changes based on their beliefs”—_everybody_ who pushes for legislation and social changes does so because of their beliefs, unless they’re doing so out of sheer self-interest. There are those who push for legislation and social change based on belief, and there are those who push for such things based on evidence. The confounding part of it being christian beliefs is that those who are trying to get things changed claim that all christians are on their side, and ascribe immorality to anyone who disagrees. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/71 "2018-04-12T16:37:45Z")
You do have to differentiate between those who adopt the name Christian, or any other religion, out of actual conviction and those who use the name as a cover story for deplorability. The criticism here is of those who claim to follow Christ but follow a belief system that has nothing to do with anything he ever preached, all while denouncing anyone who doesn’t share their own pet hatreds. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/72 "2018-04-12T17:22:26Z")
Just look at how hard so-called Christians are explaining away, excusing and straight out ignoring that their boy is a serial adulterer, a liar, a slanderer, a cheat, etc. He’s a very immoral man, yet they approve of him. As I said in the other thread, the 10 commandments are apparently no longer in effect for American conservative “Christians”. No respect for you people anymore. Just none. You’re base trash who obey no rules in your own lives yet clamor to apply them to others. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/73 "2018-04-12T17:40:50Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You do have to differentiate between those who adopt the name Christian, or any other religion, out of actual conviction and those who use the name as a cover story for deplorability. The criticism here is of those who claim to follow Christ but follow a belief system that has nothing to do with anything he ever preached, all while denouncing anyone who doesn’t share their own pet hatreds. It would be easier to do that, if when you reply to a “Christian in name only” (CINO), the rest of the christian community didn’t come to their defense. They may not agree with what other christians are doing, but they consider an attack on the Phelps clan to be an attack on them as well. They will take the side of a christian over that of any atheist every time. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/74 "2018-04-12T17:42:09Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Just look at how hard so-called Christians are explaining away, excusing and straight out ignoring that their boy is a serial adulterer, a liar, a slanderer, a cheat, etc. He’s a very immoral man, yet they approve of him. He says he’s a Christian, therefore he’s forgiven of his sins, just like they are. Besides, he’s gonna nominate judges who will save the babies and the guns. Simple, really. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/75 "2018-04-12T17:58:20Z")
I should add that conventional Christian doctrine is that forgiveness of one’s sins requires contrition, repentance, and reparation too. Apparently that’s all now waiveable under some circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/76 "2018-04-12T18:01:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > He says he’s a Christian, therefore he’s forgiven of his sins, just like they are. Besides, he’s gonna nominate judges who will save the babies and the guns. Simple, really. [Forgiven, for what?](http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-on-god-i-dont-like-to-have-to-ask-for-forgiveness-2016-1) > [@](#): > > “I am not sure I have,” Trump said when asked if he’d ever asked God for forgiveness. “I just go on and try to do a better job from there. I don’t think so,” he said. “I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right. I don’t bring God into that picture. I don’t.” ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/77 "2018-04-12T18:08:35Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > [Forgiven, for what?](http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-on-god-i-dont-like-to-have-to-ask-for-forgiveness-2016-1) Other Christians forgave him in their role as God’s proxies. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/78 "2018-04-12T18:17:43Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > And as I pointed out before, the vast majority of the leaders of the American Civil Rights movement were black ministers and pastors, who used the language of religion to push for the end of segregation. President Obama has mentioned his faith and religious beliefs when pushing for the ACA or accepting Syrian refugees. > > I think it’s a bit simplistic to claim folks need to stand up against religious people when religious people push for legislation and social change on the basis of their beliefs. When they push for preferential treatment from government, bigotry, intolerance, discrimination, and denial of various medical treatments (and other things) for OTHER people not of their “faith” (and hide behind the Bible they do NOT actually follow), then their so called “beliefs” need to be opposed. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/79 "2018-04-12T18:20:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > He says he’s a Christian, therefore he’s forgiven of his sins, just like they are. Besides, he’s gonna nominate judges who will save the babies and the guns. Simple, really. He is NOT forgiven, just for falsely claiming to be Christian. That is bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019/80 "2018-04-12T20:11:10Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > I didn’t know that. It looks as if you’ve got a major Wikipedia rewrite to do, then: > > [Separation of church and state - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state#In_various_countries) In being overly cautious, I turned out to be wrong. I can’t say I’m disappointed that I was, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-dishonest-christians/812019.md?page=5)