# To Gaudere **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 31, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715 "2003-08-31T00:43:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/61 "2003-08-31T23:09:05Z")
We know why december got banned. Sam’s the one who insists otherwise. The one who threatened/offered/whatever to leave is Sam. Clear now, Scotticher? ---
**Author:** ![Scotticher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Scotticher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scotticher)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/62 "2003-08-31T23:11:24Z")
I’m clear. He was NOT banned “simply for posting political material that you guys don’t agree with or that you think is stupid or inflammatory”, so why should **Sam Stone** take a walk? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/63 "2003-08-31T23:12:42Z")
**Sam** , here are the threads in question. First, there was the [Did the President mislead about Saddam’s WMDs, nukes and terrorists?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=205995) thread. Then, when **Gaudere** closed that thread, saying: > [@](#): > > [Moderator Hat ON] > > Hm. Deliberately lying to the GDer’s about the source of a quote is a pretty jerky thing to do. I consider it downright unethical in a debate forum, and I’m usually a pretty strong proponent of “let people post whatever they like, the truth will out”. I am locking this thread and it will stay locked until I get an email from december that convinces me to reopen it. > > [Moderator Hat OFF] **december** opened another thread on the issue entitled [For post-modern posters, truth depends on who said it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=206207). I’m not sure if these threads were the ones that were the “final straw.” The closing of the first thread was over a week before the banning, and the second thread reamins open. In the second thread, **Gaudere** made the following points about the first one: > [@](#): > > I have reviewed december’s email to me and found it unconvincing regarding adequate justification for deliberate misattribution of a quote, therefore his thread remains closed. In Great Debates I do not wish posters to be required to verify the source of every quote; there should be a reasonable presumption of truthfulness on the part of posters. If everyone pulled crap like this latest OP, deliberately misleading and conflating quotes so that posters have to independently verify the source and content of each quote in order to have an accurate response, Great Debates would become enormously unrewarding to debate in. Who said what and when and why and where DOES matter, and deceiving people about those sorts of things makes you a poster I don’t want in GD. > > In the past we have allowed some leeway for posters who are apparently lying or misquoting because perhaps they were merely stupid and got confused, but december has plainly admitted he intended to mislead the board. I think this is unacceptable behavior, and given that I thought one of his latest OPs was primarily shit-stirring this recent bit puts him on _very_ thin ice. december, remember you have been emailed before and asked to clean up your act a bit; keep your nose clean from now on or you _will_ get booted. This post was made on August 22, and the last sentence suggests that the decision to boot **december** had not yet been made at that, altohuogh it is undoubtedly true that these threads were weighed by the mods and admins in the decision to ban him. I think the key problems i have with the whole debate are that: a) many are implying, or stating outright, that the mods and admins, and **CKDH** in particular, are lying about the reason for the banning. b) people are arguing based on the unproven, and, as i’ve already said, probably unprovable assertion that **december** ’s notoriety arose mainly or solely due to his politics, not his behaviour. c) there have also been suggestions that liberals treat our own much more kindly, and such assertions continue to be made despite the fact that it has been constantly pointed out that many liberals, myself included, have been just as hard on posters like **Reeder** as we were on **december**. For myself, i have never called for **Reeder** to be banned. But then, i never called for **december** to be banned either. I lurk and contribute on some real left-wing sites, and i like them a lot. But i don’t want the SDMB to be just a left/liberal forum, and i really don’t think that it is. Also, i like the fact that i can disagree with a Doper over a political issue in one thread, and have a fun and harmonious discussion with the same Doper on a different topic (e.g., poker :)) in another. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/64 "2003-08-31T23:22:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scotticher \* > \*\*I’m clear. > > He was NOT banned “simply for posting political material that you guys don’t agree with or that you think is stupid or inflammatory”, so why should **Sam Stone** take a walk? \*\* I am NOT saying that **december** was banned “simply for posting political…” However, if **Sam** believes that to be the case, then he should stand by what he said. (Or, even better, open his mind to what the _real_ reason for the banning was.) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/65 "2003-08-31T23:26:44Z")
Okay, I’m done tilting at windmills here. But one thing I don’t understand - in the thread in question, Gaudere accused December of ‘deliberately lying’. I didn’t see it. December attributed the quote to ‘the president’. It was a rhetorical trap, and one that I’ve seen used many times in the press as well as on this board. At what point did it get elevated to a ‘deliberate lie’? Don’t get me wrong - I think that ‘gotcha’ debates are a cheap trick, and I don’t think December should have done that. But as crimes go, it’s somewhat less than a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/66 "2003-08-31T23:46:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\*I know the Beerman better than Uke, but I cannot imagine either of those gentlemen making board-related decisions based on their political views. > > I’m sure you didn’t intend it as in insult, **Gov** , but in their shoes I might very well take offense at the suggestion that they might be disinclined to pull the trigger based on ideology. \*\* No offense was ment. Out of curiousity, why would you assume that it was **Dex**? (BTW, I still think that it could have been **Ike** , for a fairly good reason: **december** rarely (if ever) posted in Cafe Society.) Out of curiousity, **Sam** , how would you take it if I wrote an OP about “the PM” that was really talking about Mulrooney, Campbell, Clark, or Turner? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/67 "2003-08-31T23:53:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*Okay, I’m done tilting at windmills here. But one thing I don’t understand - in the thread in question, Gaudere accused December of ‘deliberately lying’. I didn’t see it. December attributed the quote to ‘the president’. It was a rhetorical trap, and one that I’ve seen used many times in the press as well as on this board. At what point did it get elevated to a ‘deliberate lie’? \*\* Well, all i would say to this is what i said in the second thread on the issue. The title “President” is used in the United States to refer to former presidents, so we still use terms like President Carter, President Reagan, President Clinton, etc. But i have never yet heard a former president referred to simply as “The President,” without any reference to the person’s name or their status as a former president. I assume that the reason for this is that people know that when the term “The President” is used, the audience will assume that the person being discussed is the incumbent president, unless they are informed otherwise. **December** surely knew this would be the case. You might refer to it as a “rhetorical trap,” but i think that “deliberate lie” is just as appropriate a designation. Going off-topic a bit, i should also add that **december** ’s post made a mistake that is common among people on both sides of American politics: that those who criticize one of the two major parties (Dems or Reps) must automatically support the other one. I never responded to **december** ’s quotation, but my reaction to the quote would have been the same whether it was Bush, Clinton, or my mother. Just because i’m a strong opponent of George Bush does not mean i have any great love for Bill Clinton, and assuming that i do is the type of simplistic, reductionist thinking that is so frequently found in **december** ’s posts. Not that such idiocy is a cause for banning–i’m just making my position on that thread clear. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/68 "2003-09-01T01:40:06Z")
I thought an Admin had locked down the December banning thread with a quote that is was enough on that subject. Given that, did we really need to hijack this nice thank you thread back to the topic of the locked thread? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/69 "2003-09-01T02:02:54Z")
**elf** said > [@](#): > > I thought an Admin had locked down the December banning thread with a quote that is was enough on that subject. Given that, did we really need to hijack this nice thank you thread back to the topic of the locked thread? I believe Dex said somewhere else that the thread was locked because it degenerated into name calling. He specifically said that conversation about the subject at hand was OK. I do agree that this thread has been hijacked, but it probably is also OK as it seems to be a somewhat civilized outlet for further discussion. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/70 "2003-09-01T02:30:02Z")
Sam, can we take that to mean you no longer think december’s banning was politically motivated, even partially? How about an apology to Dex if that’s the case? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/71 "2003-09-01T02:39:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Sam, can we take that to mean you no longer think december’s banning was politically motivated, even partially? How about an apology to Dex if that’s the case? Please make it clear that you are asking a question of **Sam Stone**. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/72 "2003-09-01T03:33:45Z")
Consider it made clear, **samclem**. _You’ve_ always been a stand-up kind of guy, at least AFAIK. Give my regards to Mrs. Twain. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/73 "2003-09-01T03:57:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > > So, someone whose behavior causes lots of people to “report this post” comes to our attention sooner (perhaps) than someone whose behaviour causes no one to report their post. Thanks, You’ve made my point > [@](#): > > Please note – that’s not biased to the right or to the left, that’s biased based on whether the behaviour is annoying to people. A left-winger who pulled the same kind of stunts would presumably be reported by the conservative members here. Unless, **grien** , you’re arguing that conservatives are too polite and nice and well-mannered and stupid to ever report annoying behaviour on the part of a leftist? Actually, there are much fewer righties compared to lefties and centrists. Perhaps you could refute me by reporting the ratio of december complaints to reeder complaints you mods got in the last month. Just a ballpark would be fine. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, **grien** , if you’re saying that the mods only notice behaviour because it’s annoying to a large number of people… well, behaviours that are NOT annoying to others are probably not mis-behaviours, are they? In short, I think you’re complaining about the world: people are banned because they engage in behaviours that are violations of the rules, and most people find such behaviours offensive. Who said I was complaining? Not me. My point is merely to support my assertion that root cause of **december’s** demise is his political isolation. Had anyone else trapped **december** like he attempted to do to others with the Clinton misquote (I’m relying on reports of this allegation), the response would have been radically different. I don’t think that anyone can deny that the vast majority of dopers do not like Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh or Daniel Pipes and would harrass them if they ever participated on this board. > [@](#): > > Do you also think it’s dreadful when someone calls the cops to report an assault, and the cops arrest the mugger? Do you think it is admirable when someone reports to the principal that a classmate is smoking cigarettes in the washroom? > [@](#): > > I mean, if people hadn’t called the cops to complain, the mugger wouldn’t have been arrested, right? To paraphrase you: had the citizens tolerated the mugger and not brought forth complaints, then we wouldn’t even be discussing an arrest. So what’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/74 "2003-09-01T04:07:11Z")
So, it’s too late to say anything nice about **Gaudere**? Sorry, hon, I’ll have to save it for the next Chidope. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/75 "2003-09-01T04:35:08Z")
\<\< My point is merely to support my assertion that root cause of december’s demise is his political isolation. \>\> Goddammit, how many times do I have to say it? NO. The reason for december’s banning was his repeated mis-behavior, despite explicit warning. It had nothing to do with the causes he espoused. I’m tired of beating this dead horse. Believe what you want. In fact, since we routinely ban people who disagree with us, watch your back carefully. We’re out to get you. We have monitors watching your every move. Goddam paranoid loonies. ---
**Author:** ![Creative\_Munster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Creative\_Munster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Creative_Munster)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/76 "2003-09-01T04:47:07Z")
Once Collounsbury forced his banning, it was just a matter of time before December got the axe. If December had once posted in Collounsbury’s profane style, he would have been banned immediately. However, Collounsbury was reluctantly banished from the boards. In December’s case, any reason would have sufficed, and in the end, it did. Liberals profess to believe in a lot of freedoms. Freedom of speech, however, is limited to those who agree with their views. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/77 "2003-09-01T05:05:42Z")
**Creative\_Munster** probably picked up “Goddam paranoid loonies” through a vanity search. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/78 "2003-09-01T05:09:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Creative\_Munster \* > **Freedom of speech, however** … has nothing at all to do with this message board. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/79 "2003-09-01T05:23:12Z")
😃 Sorry, I just have to laugh at that. I sense a little frustration there **Dex**. Head gettin a little sore from beatin that wall yet? It’s getting better around here, I think/hope. Seems like some of the summer newbies/evil li’l shits 😉 are thinning out. AND **Cecil** gave me his word that he would clean house 'round here after Labor Day. He wouldn’t lie now, would he? BTW, You’ve made it clear why **Dec.** is out. I think maybe now there’s a little chain yanking going on. **Godamned Paranoid Loonies** = cool bandname 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715/80 "2003-09-01T05:25:33Z")
Nobody is denying that December was banned for his behavior. Just that he wouldn’t have been banned for his behavior, had not there been such an outcry against it. It’s on the same lines as the rarely enforced sodomy laws that used to exist. Tons of people technically commited sodomy according to those laws. However it would take special circumstances for someone to be convicted of sodomy. And then, of course, they would have been convicted for their behavior, right? And this is from someone who disagreed with almost all of December’s partisan politics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-gaudere/198715.md?page=5)