# To get one's goat **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 21, 2013, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809 "2013-10-21T12:54:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/1 "2013-10-21T12:54:18Z")
“That really gets my goat!” means it irritates or annoys me. Where did this phrase originate? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/2 "2013-10-21T14:19:31Z")
From [goatberries.com](http://goatberries.com): > [@](#): > > As it turns out, there’s no clear consensus on the phrase’s origins, but both proposed explanations I’ve found revolve around the idea that goats were kept with other animals to help keep them calm. > > The Phrase Finder concludes that the saying is distinctly American dating back to 1909 and sticks by the “commonly repeated story which purports to explain the phrase’s origin is that goats were placed with racehorses to keep them calm. When ne’er-do-wells who wanted the horse to race badly removed it, i.e. they ‘got someone’s goat’, the horse became unsettled and ran badly.” The site admits, though that there’s no evidence to support this etymological tale. > > That said, Ye Olde English Sayings discusses the origins of “getting your goat” with reference to “an old English (Welsh?) belief that keeping a goat in the barn would have a calming effect on the cows, hence producing more milk. When one wanted to antagonize/terrorize one’s enemy, you would abscond with their goat rendering their milk cows less- to non-productive.” > > Whether the phrase is English or American, the common thread is “goats as the great calmers of nature.” ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/3 "2013-10-21T17:58:28Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > From [goatberries.com](http://goatberries.com): The claim that the phrase is “distinctly American” and dates back to 1909 seems very implausible to me. I am British and the expression seems to me to be a perfectly normal part of colloquial British English. That does not rule out the possibility that it may have originated in America, but if it originated as recently as 1909, which would mean that it crossed the Atlantic some time after that, then, even if it caught on very rapidly in Britain, it would undoubtedly still have the flavour of an Americanism. I am also doubtful about the story about goats being used to calm other animals. First of all, is that even really true? (Why on Earth would goats have such an effect?) But that aside, why do we even need such an elaborate story? If I owned a goat (as, once upon a time, many people did), and somebody else got it, I would be annoyed. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/4 "2013-10-21T18:18:44Z")
This UK phrase site gives a date of 1924 for the first non-US cite, while confirming the 1909 date: > **['Get your goat' - the meaning and origin of this phrase](https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/get-your-goat.html)** > > The meaning and origin of the phrase 'Get your goat'. Most places seem to agree that there’s no consensus as to the origin. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/5 "2013-10-21T18:22:23Z")
I only know that when I joined the Dope, the goat’s effect on me was the opposite of calming! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/6 "2013-10-21T22:08:46Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > I only know that when I joined the Dope, the goat’s effect on me was the opposite of calming! :eek: That would depend on whether or not you’re a barn animal. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/7 "2013-10-22T00:25:42Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > The claim that the phrase is “distinctly American” and dates back to 1909 seems very implausible to me. You’re swimming against the tide here. > [@](#): > > I am British and the expression seems to me to be a perfectly normal part of colloquial British English. That does not rule out the possibility that it may have originated in America, but if it originated as recently as 1909, which would mean that it crossed the Atlantic some time after that, then, even if it caught on very rapidly in Britain, it would undoubtedly still have the flavour of an Americanism. . Which it perhaps does. > [@](#): > > I am also doubtful about the story about goats being used to calm other animals. First of all, is that even really true? (Why on Earth would goats have such an effect?) But that aside, why do we even need such an elaborate story? If I owned a goat (as, once upon a time, many people did), and somebody else got it, I would be annoyed. Your personal feelings aside, why can’t it be true? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/8 "2013-10-22T00:52:42Z")
Not weighing in on the origin of the phrase, but it is a common thing to keep goats as stable mates to racehorses. Like most livestock species horses are herd animals and need others of their species to feel calm. They will attach to a goat if there’s not another horse. It’s not that goats have magical calming powers, they are simply practical – typically intelligent, confident, tame, and easy to handle (unlike a sheep), easily attached to another species of livestock if there are no other goats around, small size (take up less space and eat less than another horse). Both species make strong friendship bonds, so it’s a way to keep a nervous horse settled down with an (inexpensive small) friend. Burros and ponies are also used this way. But I have doubts this has much to do with the phrase, somehow. It could slightly more plausibly be about teasing billy goats to rile them up (a rural pastime of small boys). ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/9 "2013-10-22T01:36:31Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Not weighing in on the origin of the phrase, but it is a common thing to keep goats as stable mates to racehorses. Like most livestock species horses are herd animals and need others of their species to feel calm. They will attach to a goat if there’s not another horse. It’s not that goats have magical calming powers, they are simply practical – typically intelligent, confident, tame, and easy to handle (unlike a sheep), easily attached to another species of livestock if there are no other goats around, small size (take up less space and eat less than another horse). Both species make strong friendship bonds, so it’s a way to keep a nervous horse settled down with an (inexpensive small) friend. Burros and ponies are also used this way. > > But I have doubts this has much to do with the phrase, somehow. It could slightly more plausibly be about teasing billy goats to rile them up (a rural pastime of small boys). Your post was helpful, if only to confirm the calming effect. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/10 "2013-10-22T02:40:14Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > You’re swimming against the tide here. What tide? When I posted there was one, single post saying otherwise, apparently basing its claims on a site called [goatberries.com](http://goatberries.com). Maybe my conclusions were wrong, but I don’t think I was being at all absurd to be skeptical of **Prof. Pepperwinkle** ’s claims, on the grounds of my own experience of the use of the expression, at that stage of the discussion. > [@samclem](#): > > . Which it perhaps does. I am not sure what you mean by this. What I am saying is that it seems to me that I have known this expression since I was a child, growing up in England a half century ago. Even back then, I knew that some expressions were “proper English” and some were really American expressions that people had picked up from American films, TV and the like. It never occurred to me, however, that “gets my goat” was one of these. It has always seemed perfectly British to me. Yet, according to **Prof. Pepperwinkle** and [goatberries.com](http://goatberries.com), the expression could not then have been in use at all in Britain for more than about 40 years at the very most, and almost certainly a much shorter period. I do not say it is impossible that it was first imported and then both widely popularized and fully naturalized that quickly, but I do say it is unlikely, especially since many American expressions have now been around in Britain much longer than that, and still seem like Americanisms. I guess the evidence is now stacking up that it actually did happen that quickly. Well, that’s weird, I say. > [@samclem](#): > > Your personal feelings aside, why can’t it be true? I never said it can’t, I said I find it unlikely. I can accept **Ulfreida** ’s testimony, but I still find it surprising. And, as I said, I am not convinced that there is any need to appeal to this fact in order to explain the expression. A simpler hypothesis is available. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/11 "2013-10-22T03:42:51Z")
I’ve always assumed it was a way to get around saying “God” or “Jesus” or “Christ,” which were early swear words. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/12 "2013-10-22T03:47:28Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > I’ve always assumed it was a way to get around saying “God” or “Jesus” or “Christ,” which were early swear words. “That really gets my God” doesn’t really strike me as a likely origin of the phrase.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/13 "2013-10-22T03:57:37Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Not weighing in on the origin of the phrase, but it is a common thing to keep goats as stable mates to racehorses. It’s common enough it was referenced in _The Sopranos_. Tony Soprano’s racehorse Pie-O-My has a goat as a stablemate, seen at about 1:23 in [this clip.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQnaLl5fdIY) ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/14 "2013-10-22T05:12:38Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > “That really gets my God” doesn’t really strike me as a likely origin of the phrase.😉 Not so far from “god damn you,” imho. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/15 "2013-10-22T08:23:43Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > The claim that the phrase is “distinctly American” and dates back to 1909 seems very implausible to me. I am British and the expression seems to me to be a perfectly normal part of colloquial British English. That does not rule out the possibility that it may have originated in America, but if it originated as recently as 1909, which would mean that it crossed the Atlantic some time after that, then, even if it caught on very rapidly in Britain, it would undoubtedly still have the flavour of an Americanism. I must admit, it struck me with the same surprise, but even unlikely things happen occasionally. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/16 "2013-10-22T08:37:14Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It’s common enough it was referenced in _The Sopranos_. Tony Soprano’s racehorse Pie-O-My has a goat as a stablemate, seen at about 1:23 in [this clip.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQnaLl5fdIY) There’s also the [“Judas goat”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_goat). The Wiki page goes into more details (and more situations where they might be used), but I was familiar with the concept as it pertains to slaughterhouses : the knackers traditionally kept a goat with the other animals, and when it was time to lead them to get a hammer to the noggin’ they’d trot the goat out in front of the pens. The goat’s done this many times, so it’s not stressed out at all. The cows see this, conclude everything’s fine, come out quietly. Only the goat gets to come back. Rinse, repeat. (As for me, I always assumed the phrase referred to the notorious ill temperament of billy goats, and the malign creativity of old goats in general. The toothless little creeps carry a hell of a grudge.) ---
**Author:** ![sylmar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@sylmar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sylmar)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/17 "2013-10-22T11:04:59Z")
Obviously derives from cadet pranksters stealing the Navy mascot before the Army Navy game. 😉 “Getting their mule” never really caught on in the public lexicon after the first (And last) attempt at bundling off the army mascot… ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/18 "2013-10-22T14:19:37Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Not so far from “god damn you,” imho. I don’t see any resemblance at all myself, in either form or meaning. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-ones-goat/671809/19 "2013-10-22T14:34:52Z")
This from World Wide Words who I consider to be as good an authority on semantics as you can find anywhere on the web: [http://www.worldwidewords.org/](http://www.worldwidewords.org/) > [@](#): > > It’s a perplexing expression right enough. Though the phrase is recorded from near the beginning of the twentieth century, nobody seems to know where it comes from. > > We do know it’s American. The earliest known reference to it is in a book, Life in Sing Sing, of 1904, in which goat is glossed as meaning anger. Examples begin to appear in the following years, with its becoming more widely known by about 1910 (an article in the Washington Post in September that year about superstitions connected with goats calls it “the modern slang expression”). Also in that year, Jack London included it in a letter: “Honestly, I believe I’ve got Samuels’ goat! He’s afraid to come back”. > > The most common story to explain the phrase relates to horse racing in North America and to the common practice of putting a goat in the stall with a skittish thoroughbred racehorse to help calm it. Enterprising villains capitalised on this by gambling on the horse to lose and then stealing the goat. A substantial desire to suspend one’s disbelief is needed to accept this story at face value. > > Other people have tried to identify it in some way with scapegoat, have seen it as a variant form of goad, and have linked it with an old French phrase prendre la chèvre (to take the goat). But evidence is lacking for all of them.