# To get this out of the way, I don't think Bernie would have won either. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 9, 2016, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148 "2016-11-09T07:10:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/41 "2016-11-09T20:17:40Z")
It amazes me that Clinton people can just tap dance around the fact that she went into the campaign with \*negative net approval ratings. \* No other party has ever nominated such a candidate (except for the GOP this year, of course). People have been following her career for twenty-five years, those opinions weren’t going to change. Bernie was a new face to most voters who don’t follow politics closely; it’s possible that _he_ could have become that “symbol of change and rebellion”. And all evidence up to the time he left the race suggests that he was on track to do it, with much higher appeal to independent voters than either Clinton or Trump. Hillary’s massive unpopularity, largely justified, was also embellished by a vigorous campaign of slander and lies waged against her for the last quarter century. And she still BARELY lost to Trump! I don’t know how people can feel so certain that the right wing propagandists could destroy Bernie’s reputation that effectively given five months to work with. Sure, it _might_ have happened, but why would you take already damaged goods over _potentially damageable_ goods? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/42 "2016-11-09T20:41:55Z")
**SenorBeef** , you’re right that people don’t like being called sexist. But that doesn’t mean they’re not sexist. I suppose one could make a case that it’d’ve been better to not call out sexists in the hope that more of them would vote for Hillary. How long do we need to keep our silence? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/43 "2016-11-09T20:44:42Z")
Oh for fucks sake, what you took from what I said was “Yes, of course everyone who doesn’t like Clinton must be sexist, there is no other option, but maybe I shouldn’t say it as loudly”? Do you understand that you are the reason why I, someone who absolutely thinks Trump is a disaster, had to reluctantly force myself to vote for Clinton rather than enthusiastically embrace her? No, I don’t think you do, or can. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/44 "2016-11-09T20:59:33Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Bernie was a new face to most voters who don’t follow politics closely; it’s possible that _he_ could have become that “symbol of change and rebellion”. Bernie is an elderly man, frail-looking for his age, who has spent virtually _his entire life_ ‘sucking at the public teat’ (as the ads would certainly have put it). He _is_ the Washington Establishment. How anyone can believe he’d have been taken as a Symbol of Change and Rebellion is a mystery. He’s the ultimate Insider. Trump would have beaten him easily and decisively. No contest at all. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/45 "2016-11-09T21:01:46Z")
The guy who’s managed to be the extremely rare independent Senator has no party machinery and basically no corruption or baggage issues is more of an “ultimate insider” to the biggest power in the democratic party who’s utterly tied to her owners? Give me a break. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/46 "2016-11-09T21:05:20Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Oh for fucks sake, what you took from what I said was “Yes, of course everyone who doesn’t like Clinton must be sexist, there is no other option, but maybe I shouldn’t say it as loudly”? > > Do you understand that you are the reason why I, someone who absolutely thinks Trump is a disaster, had to reluctantly force myself to vote for Clinton rather than enthusiastically embrace her? > > No, I don’t think you do, or can. Yes, that’s what I took from your post. You’re treating a presidential election like choosing a high school clique. I’m sorry that calling some opposition to Clinton sexist upset you. But some opposition to Clinton was in fact sexist. There must come a time when accepting sexism in silence is not acceptable. You’re probably right that this was a poor time to do so, because calling out sexists offended some people who might’ve otherwise voted for Hillary. And that sucks. But the sexism is still there. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/47 "2016-11-09T21:10:52Z")
> [@](#): > > The only difference between Clinton and most other politicians is she a woman. You didn’t say some. You said that the only difference. Only difference. Therefore, anyone who did not vote for her, when they would vote for most other politiicans, is strictly because she’s a woman. This is why people reject your kind. You tell them that the only reason they could prefer one candidate over another - THE ONLY REASON - is because they have the character flaw of hating women. Then you say “Huh, I alienated them. I mean, I was right, of course. How can I not be? But maybe I shouldn’t have been so loud about it. I should’ve secretly just concluded that they were sexist” These sort of casual, bullshit, baseless, unjustified assumptions of bigotry are a big part of why the average person rejected you. Could you do us all a favor and stop fucking casually saying that THE ONLY FUCKING REASON SOMEONE MIGHT NOT LIKE A CANDIDATE IS BECAUSE THEY’RE A BIGOT? Maybe if people like you would stop thinking and saying these things people wouldn’t be so inclined to reject you and the politicians you come with. This is fucking why tens of millions of Americans hate the left. You are the thing people are giving the finger to when they vote Trump to stick it to you. You and your kind inspired millions of Trump voters. ---
**Author:** ![computergeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@computergeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/computergeek)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/48 "2016-11-09T21:26:24Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > \ > Seriously, Sanders would (a) still be a Senator, from Vermont no less, and thus one of the liberal political elite to a potential Trump voter no matter how outsider-ish his actual policy proposals are, and (b) highly vulnerable to being incessantly mocked as a socialist (not entirely unfairly) or Communist (unfairly, but we’re talking Trump and the GOP here), as has been noted. > > Sanders wouldn’t have won because Clinton didn’t lose as much as Trump won. Not Trump the whiny short-attention-span unsuccessful businessman and television personality but Trump the symbol. > > Once Trump became a symbol of change, rebellion, etc. to a certain class of voter, Trump the symbol could not [del]die[/del] lose the votes of that class regardless of the shortcomings of the man. :eek: Conversely, IMHO, whoever the Dems picked would’ve symbolized the liberal political elite to Trump-inclined voters, regardless of his or her actual record, circumstances, etc. :smack: I have to agree with this now that we are looking back at this. Certainly Clinton had baggage, but I’m not sure it mattered who represented the Democrats. Whoever was part of the establishment, like Biden, likely would have lost, as enough people were looking to break from who was in charge (the Democrats). Bernie would have been supported by the Democratic party, the President, and likely the Clintons to get out the vote, and likely would have been seen as part of the establishment. Not only that, he was on the left and it seems the folks who voted to change things wanted to move rightward or at least didn’t want to move further leftward. And Trump likely would have squashed him like a bug like he did his primary challengers. There’s just something about him that draws people to him and gets the press to give him a lot of attention, and somehow people kept underestimating him ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/49 "2016-11-09T21:36:28Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You didn’t say some. You said that the only difference. Only difference. Therefore, anyone who did not vote for her, when they would vote for most other politiicans, is strictly because she’s a woman. > > This is why people reject your kind. You tell them that the only reason they could prefer one candidate over another - THE ONLY REASON - is because they have the character flaw of hating women. Then you say “Huh, I alienated them. I mean, I was right, of course. How can I not be? But maybe I shouldn’t have been so loud about it. I should’ve secretly just concluded that they were sexist” > > These sort of casual, bullshit, baseless, unjustified assumptions of bigotry are a big part of why the average person rejected you. Could you do us all a favor and stop fucking casually saying that THE ONLY FUCKING REASON SOMEONE MIGHT NOT LIKE A CANDIDATE IS BECAUSE THEY’RE A BIGOT? Maybe if people like you would stop thinking and saying these things people wouldn’t be so inclined to reject you and the politicians you come with. This is fucking why tens of millions of Americans hate the left. You are the thing people are giving the finger to when they vote Trump to stick it to you. You and your kind inspired millions of Trump voters. :smack: You’re reading things I didn’t write. “The only difference between Clinton and most other politicians is she a woman” does not imply the only reason to vote for her or not is that she is a woman. It does mean that calling her especially loathsome is not reasonable, that magnifying her faults far beyond their actual importance is not reasonable, that questioning her competence when she is manifestly competent is not reasonable. And when I say “not reasonable”, I mean looking suspiciously like sexist. There’s ways to disagree with a female candidate without being sexist and there’s ways that are. And I’ll note that as a centrist Republican, my kind was exiled to eating locusts in the wilderness a long time ago. Any resemblance of my opinions to those on the political left is purely coincidental. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/50 "2016-11-09T21:56:10Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Between that and “Okay Bernie Bros, you had your fun, but now it’s time to be an adult and accept the inevitable coronation of the all powerful Clinton you silly kids” I had such a fucking hard time overcoming how much her supporters pushed me away to actually vote for her, and I was disgusted with myself for doing so. How many people weren’t able to overcome all the shit you threw at them to vote for her? The fucking supporters of the candidate are supposed to welcome people and encourage them to vote for her, not want to make them spite you because of how you’re treating them. I agreed during the primaries, and I agree now. Like you, I held my nose and voted Clinton, because Trump has shown himself to be a horrible person… but I wonder, how many couldn’t do it, especially with that attitude that any of the non-establishment, grass-roots Bernie supporters were nothing more than idiot children? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/51 "2016-11-09T22:16:46Z")
I didn’t buckle. I did **not** vote for Hillary. I wrote in Bernie’s name on my ballot, even though I know he said not to, and the pressure was all to vote for her (I live in CA, where it wouldn’t matter anyway. But even if I lived in a swing state, I would have stuck to my guns and not felt bad about it - we completely deserve Trump after this bullshit). ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/52 "2016-11-09T22:20:09Z")
Who’s this “we” who deserves Trump? The people terrified of dying because they’ll be dropped off insurance? Or the six transgender teens that a private helpline claimed committed suicide in the past 16 hours? Please explain how they would’ve been equally miserable under Clinton. That’s the part I just don’t get. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/53 "2016-11-09T23:02:48Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Do you think that, if a male Secretary of State was found to have neglected basic cybersecurity precautions, nobody would make a big deal out of it? > > Do you think that if a male candidate ran a foundation which took money from foreign leaders, their opponents wouldn’t think to bring it up? > > Do you think that if a male Democratic Presidential candidate had voted for the Iraq War while in the Senate, this wouldn’t have been an issue? > > It’s true that a lot of people have an irrational hatred of Clinton, and I think it’s obvious that misogyny is a major part of that. I think that (warning: bizarre counterfactual ahead) a man with Clinton’s policies and record probably would have beaten Trump, and that really, really sucks. But that politician would still have been a flawed candidate, relative not only to some ideal candidate but to any presentable nonentity off the bench (Kaine, for instance). I agree with your final paragraph (male Hillary may have done better than female Hillary) because of my answers to your three questions. Colin Powell did similar, but yes, not as bad, things in terms of cybersecurity and Joe Biden voted for the Iraq War. I’m not entirely sure about the foundation questions but mostly because I don’t think any candidate had a well enough known spouse that would have started a foundation - but if Michelle Obama runs for President we may see that again. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/54 "2016-11-10T01:42:52Z")
I would have loved to see Bernie explain the nuances of Democratic Socialism to a crown of people who used the terms liberal, Democrat, Socialist, Communist, and Progressive interchangeably if, indeed, not sequentially. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/55 "2016-11-10T01:51:29Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > I would have loved to see Bernie explain the nuances of Democratic Socialism to a crown of people who used the terms liberal, Democrat, Socialist, Communist, and Progressive interchangeably if, indeed, not sequentially. When he first announced, I was somewhat familiar with him and thought the same thing. Yet he did fine, granted in primaries. I read some other, rather conservative forums, and while not many there would’ve admitted liking him, he drew **much** less disdain than Clinton. Also granted, her job wasn’t to convince people who would always vote Republican, nor her base, but the many people who are undecided. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/56 "2016-11-10T02:21:50Z")
Two extremist basically party-outsiders against each other I would have bet the house on Bernie. I did bet that the only person Hillary could beat from the Republican side was Trump so my track record ain’t great. But polite and controlled loony vs. batshit crazy loony and my money would have been on the polite guy. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/57 "2016-11-10T08:33:18Z")
I’m not sure “polite and controlled” is the best way to describe Bernie. > [@irritant](#): > > Bernie would never have been able to convince suburban moms to vote for him. He would have done even worse with Latinos and African Americans than Hillary did. The Democratic donor class would not have gotten behind him with the force that they got behind Hillary. Trump would have made up outrageous but entertaining lies about him and Republicans and Independents would have believed every word. And he would have lost the Deplorables that won Trump the Midwest: they might like some of Bernie’s policies, but to them he’s still a liberal, an elitist, an outsider, a Jew. > > Bernie would have been crushed like a bug, and today Hillary’s primary voters would have been tweeting #ShouldaBeenHer > > And if this nonsense about how Bernie would have done better continues, then in four years we’ll be fielding an unelectable candidate just like him against Trump (or whoever primaries Trump from the right). I mostly agree with you, but I think Democrats should consider in 2020 nominating someone from the Sanders-Warren wing of the party. But how about maybe someone who combs their hair, isn’t so shouty, doesn’t actually call themselves a socialist even if their policy preferences are just as progressive as Bernie’s, and someone who didn’t play footsie with actual Soviet and Latin American communists in the '80s? Just a thought. > [@John\_Bredin](#): > > Sanders wouldn’t have won because Clinton didn’t lose as much as Trump won. How do you figure? Trump got a million fewer votes than Romney despite not facing an incumbent, and despite the U.S. population increasing by ten million from 2012 to 2016. That suggests to me, sadly, that it is exactly the reverse of what you are saying. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > The guy who’s managed to be the extremely rare independent Senator has no party machinery and basically no corruption or baggage issues is more of an “ultimate insider” to the biggest power in the democratic party who’s utterly tied to her owners? Give me a break. Funny you should say this, because I just came across this on Facebook from a friend of a friend (emphasis mine): > [@](#): > > Tonight I went to the protest rally at Frank Ogawa Plaza (Oscar Grant Plaza) in Oakland. We heard speakers representing the African-American population of Oakland, the Standing Rock native Americans who are resisting construction of the Dakota Access Pipeline, a Palestinian who spoke on behalf of all the oppressed peoples in Palestine, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. And then we heard a Caucasian representative of the Socialist Alternative, who had no clue, having the unmitigated gall to start delivering a homily about the Black Panther Party in the heart of downtown Oakland. (I wonder if Elaine Brown was in the audience.) This was met by a chant, “Grab that mike”, urging the other leaders on the speakers platform to take away the microphone from the Socialist Alternative representative. **Later on the same Socialist Alternative member was praising Bernie Sanders! This after Bernie betrayed his backers by endorsing Hillary Clinton! Earlier there had been a lot of chanting of “Fuck Trump”. There were some in the audience who started chanting “Fuck Bernie” after this clueless representative from the Socialist Alternative started praising Sanders. Bernie is part of the system** , and the severe systemic problems in America have to be fought unflaggingly and addressed at every level, local, state, and federal. This point, which was made by Ralph Nader on Democracy Now on election night, was also made by two of the speakers at Frank Ogawa Plaza tonight. No compromises with the politicians at any level who conspire with and/or kowtow to the unjust, racist, corporate, capitalist system we live under. It’s a great illustration of how left-wing revolutionary movements always end up eating their own (as famous figures from Robespierre to Trotsky found out the hard way). These are the kinds of people Bernie came up with, and the kind of core supporters he had in the primaries; yet now they are happy to shout “Fuck Bernie”. You are playing with fire when you try to lead a political movement with these kinds of firebrands as your base. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/58 "2016-11-10T09:01:53Z")
I think Bernie would have lost too. I think the yahoos would still pick trumps populism, and the antitrump republicans would still prefer trump to a socialist. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/59 "2016-11-11T04:49:12Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I didn’t buckle. I did **not** vote for Hillary. I wrote in Bernie’s name on my ballot, even though I know he said not to, and the pressure was all to vote for her (I live in CA, where it wouldn’t matter anyway. But even if I lived in a swing state, I would have stuck to my guns and not felt bad about it - we completely deserve Trump after this bullshit). That is LITERALLY throwing away your vote. If you had voted for Jill Stein, at least your impotent gesture of protest would have been noted in the official record. Write-in votes for people who aren’t actually running are just ignored totally. Anecdotally, it seems like a lot of people did this. I wonder if it would have been enough to get the Green Party to 5%. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/60 "2016-11-11T04:52:25Z")
It also makes me wonder: if we based our election on national popular vote, not only would Hillary win just with the numbers she has now, but she might have actually gotten a lot \*more \*votes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148.md?page=4)