# To get this out of the way, I don't think Bernie would have won either. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 9, 2016, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148 "2016-11-09T07:10:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/81 "2016-11-15T18:05:30Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > who doesn’t let ranting extremists like BLM run the show, So I’m an “extremist” if I don’t think that Black Lives Don’t Matter? You’re a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/82 "2016-11-15T18:22:20Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I agree with your final paragraph (male Hillary may have done better than female Hillary) because of my answers to your three questions. Colin Powell did similar, but yes, not as bad, things in terms of cybersecurity and Joe Biden voted for the Iraq War. I’m not entirely sure about the foundation questions but mostly because I don’t think any candidate had a well enough known spouse that would have started a foundation - but if Michelle Obama runs for President we may see that again. I disagree. I think male Hillary would never have gotten off the ground politically. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/83 "2016-11-15T18:23:29Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > When he first announced, I was somewhat familiar with him and thought the same thing. Yet he did fine, granted in primaries. I read some other, rather conservative forums, and while not many there would’ve admitted liking him, he drew **much** less disdain than Clinton. Also granted, her job wasn’t to convince people who would always vote Republican, nor her base, but the many people who are undecided. I know many republicans that would have voted for Bernie over Trump. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/84 "2016-11-15T18:29:35Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Depends on how many Bernie supporters went Trump/third party. Hillary supporters insisted they didn’t need Bernie support in the general, so maybe they listened. No, we didnt. Where did you get that idea? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/85 "2016-11-15T18:32:32Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Of course Bernie would have won. Reasons: > > 1. Almost any Democrat would have beaten Trump. We kept telling you during the primaries that nominating a candidate who _most Americans actively dislike_ might not be a good idea, but you wouldn’t listen. > > 2. Anti-establishment sentiment was clearly a major factor in this election, and Bernie could have tapped into that in a way Clinton never could. Most Americans disliked Hillary due to the Rove Hate & Lie machine, which would have been turned full force on Sanders. Trump was even more disliked. Bernie, as a life long Politico, pretty much defines Establishment. But yes, Bernie _might_ have won. Clinton came very close, so maybe. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/86 "2016-11-15T18:42:01Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Between that and “Okay Bernie Bros, you had your fun, but now it’s time to be an adult and accept the inevitable coronation of the all powerful Clinton you silly kids” I had such a fucking hard time overcoming how much her supporters pushed me away to actually vote for her, and I was disgusted with myself for doing so. How many people weren’t able to overcome all the shit you threw at them to vote for her? The fucking supporters of the candidate are supposed to welcome people and encourage them to vote for her, not want to make them spite you because of how you’re treating them. Yes, indeed, _after_ Clinton won the Primaries- Fair & Square- we expected the “Bernie Bros” & “Sandernistas” to follow the example of Sanders himself and put on your big boy pants and support the candidate. We expected you\* to stop whining about the Nomination being fixed or stolen and we expected you to stop attacking Clinton. But many of you couldnt do that. And that cost us the election. You guys, along with GOP voter suppression have cost us 4 years of Trump, along with a packed SCOTUS that will try and overcome Roe vs Wade. - not “you” as the Poster, but “you” as in the generic Sanders supporter. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/87 "2016-11-15T18:44:14Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The guy who’s managed to be the extremely rare independent Senator has no party machinery and basically no corruption or baggage issues is more of an “ultimate insider” to the biggest power in the democratic party who’s utterly tied to her owners? Give me a break. He’s been a politician since **1981**. Well, he was running in the 1970’s. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/88 "2016-11-15T18:46:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Most Americans disliked Hillary due to the Rove Hate & Lie machine, which would have been turned full force on Sanders. Trump was even more disliked. So the Rove Hate Machine could have drummed up the same animosity towards Sanders in only a few months? Hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/89 "2016-11-15T18:52:49Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So the Rove Hate Machine could have drummed up the same animosity towards Sanders in only a few months? Hard to believe. Tell that to John Kerry. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/90 "2016-11-15T18:55:12Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > Tell that to John Kerry. Yep, how long did it take them to come up with Swiftboating? To smear a real American war hero? Now sure, not to the extent they have been hitting Hillary, after all they have been spreading lies and running bogus hearings about her for decades. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/91 "2016-11-15T19:16:50Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > Tell that to John Kerry. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yep, how long did it take them to come up with Swiftboating? To smear a real American war hero? > > Now sure, not to the extent they have been hitting Hillary, after all they have been spreading lies and running bogus hearings about her for decades. How much did Kerry’s approval rating actually drop? Looking at Real Clear polling from 2004, Bush jumped into a lead right around his official nomination and led throughout until the election. Googling shows they started the Swiftboat ads at the beginning of August and throughout August was the last time Kerry had the lead. According to Gallup, he had a positive approval rating from August onwards. > **[Candidate Favorable Ratings -- John Kerry](https://news.gallup.com/poll/18634/candidate-favorable-ratings-john-kerry.aspx)** I see nothing that shows the Rove Hate&Lie machine destroyed Kerry’s approval ratings. Maybe one of you can point out the evidence? ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/92 "2016-11-15T19:20:32Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Bernie has a likability that Clinton has never had. Yes, they would’ve drug him through the mud - but other than some shit he might’ve said 30 years ago about how socialism isn’t the worst thing ever there’s not much mud to throw at him. He doesn’t have scandals or baggage or anyone who owns him. He’s as clean and true to himself as a politician can be. He’s been divorced, and his single biological child was born out of wedlock. However, if he was ever a deadbeat dad, etc. that would have come out long before now. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/93 "2016-11-15T19:23:03Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > How much did Kerry’s approval rating actually drop? Looking at Real Clear polling from 2004, Bush jumped into a lead right around his official nomination and led throughout until the election. Googling shows they started the Swiftboat ads at the beginning of August and throughout August was the last time Kerry had the lead. According to Gallup, he had a positive approval rating from August onwards. > [Candidate Favorable Ratings -- John Kerry](http://www.gallup.com/poll/18634/candidate-favorable-ratings-john-kerry.aspx) > > I see nothing that shows the Rove Hate&Lie machine destroyed Kerry’s approval ratings. Maybe one of you can point out the evidence? Who knows? The election was very close. Maybe it just cost him that close vote in Ohio…which cost him the election. But the issues isnt whether or not Kerry lost due to Swiftboating- Rove tried that same shit vs Obama and it failed. But it’s an example of how lies can hit and hurt hard in just a short period. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/94 "2016-11-15T19:32:55Z")
> [@irritant](#): > > So Kurt Eichenwald [has a piece in Newsweek today](http://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-democrats-presidential-election-521044) that, among other things, effectively trashes the idea that Bernie could have won in my mind. This is just a sample of things that apparently appear in the Republicans’ Sanders oppo book: > > Then there’s the fact that Sanders was on unemployment until his mid-30s, and that he stole electricity from a neighbor after failing to pay his bills, and that he co-sponsored a bill to ship Vermont’s nuclear waste to a poor Hispanic community in Texas, where it could be dumped. You can just see the words “environmental racist” on Republican billboards. And if you can’t, I already did. They were in the Republican opposition research book as a proposal on how to frame the nuclear waste issue. > > > [@](#): > > > > Also on the list: Sanders violated campaign finance laws, criticized Clinton for supporting the 1994 crime bill that he voted for, and he voted against the Amber Alert system. His pitch for universal health care would have been used against him too, since it was tried in his home state of Vermont and collapsed due to excessive costs. Worst of all, the Republicans also had video of Sanders at a 1985 rally thrown by the leftist Sandinista government in Nicaragua where half a million people chanted, “Here, there, everywhere/the Yankee will die,’’ while President Daniel Ortega condemned “state terrorism” by America. Sanders said, on camera, supporting the Sandinistas was “patriotic.” > > Does anybody seriously believe that the voters who wouldn’t go for Hillary would have gone for this? That’s some pretty devastating stuff. I liked Bernie (though to be honest he wore out his welcome with me during the primaries), but the fact is he lost by 3 million votes _in the Democratic primary_. Someone who can’t even win their own party’s primary is going to lose the general election. And it’s not like he was going to pivot in the general–he already had all the votes he would have ever gotten, and that was 3 million less than Hillary. Trump would have destroyed him. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/95 "2016-11-15T19:47:18Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > That’s some pretty devastating stuff. > > I liked Bernie (though to be honest he wore out his welcome with me during the primaries), but the fact is he lost by 3 million votes _in the Democratic primary_. Someone who can’t even win their own party’s primary is going to lose the general election. And it’s not like he was going to pivot in the general–he already had all the votes he would have ever gotten, and that was 3 million less than Hillary. Trump would have destroyed him. He might have pivoted. Or if he pulled a Trump and didn’t pivot he might have gotten more “hold your nose” Dems than Hillary managed to drag to the polls. Trump lost a little total votes compared to Romney. Hillary lost a lot compared to Obama. It’s not inconceivable that a few more of those Hopey-Changey voters would have showed up for lefty grandpa. Especially in the “blue wall”( ☹ ) states. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/96 "2016-11-15T19:48:08Z")
> [@irritant](#): > > So Kurt Eichenwald [has a piece in Newsweek today](http://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-democrats-presidential-election-521044) that, among other things, effectively trashes the idea that Bernie could have won in my mind. This is just a sample of things that apparently appear in the Republicans’ Sanders oppo book: > > Does anybody seriously believe that the voters who wouldn’t go for Hillary would have gone for this? Also, IIRC, Sanders never released his Tax returns. But I do see him as a pretty honest guy. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/97 "2016-11-15T19:51:46Z")
Well, as it was they junked Bernie since he couldn’t defeat Trump whilst Hillary **would**. Easily. How did that work out again? ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/98 "2016-11-15T20:00:15Z")
On my scorecard. Bernie would be a very bad general election candidate. Trump is an extremely bad general election candidate Clinton is an abysmally bad general election candidate. ---
**Author:** ![vedicgyan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/898d66/32.png) [@vedicgyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vedicgyan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/99 "2016-11-15T20:02:14Z")
In my view, Clinton basically shot herself in the foot. All she had to do to win the election was skirt controversies and present a strongly positive message vs. Trump who was busy plunging everything down the gutter. Bernie would hopefully have not had such controversies while getting better support from younger voters which would have given him a very good chance vs. Trump. Remember that Clinton won the popular vote despite all her troubles. Bernie would mostlikely have been able to go over and beyond that and actually win more states. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148/100 "2016-11-15T20:07:21Z")
> [@vedicgyan](#): > > Bernie would hopefully have not had such controversies while getting better support from younger voters which would have given him a very good chance vs. Trump. Relying on support from younger voters is one of the easiest ways to lose an election. They just don’t vote at the same rate as older voters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-get-this-out-of-the-way-i-dont-think-bernie-would-have-won-either/771148.md?page=6)