# To hell with you, Ford. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2004, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433 "2004-06-09T12:14:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/21 "2004-06-11T01:12:38Z")
> [@htns](#): > > What happened, Ford? After all, you have 90 years of experience that Henry Ford didn’t. > > Fuck you, Ford. You should be moving forward, not backward. Gotta ask here, **htns** : you ever been in a Model T driving down the highway? You ever try to keep one filled with oil and coolant? Ever drive one in the rain? on unpaved roads? backwards? Ever try to fit $150 of groceries and two kids in one? Ever try to drive a car with no key-start and lever-operated accelerator? Or is your _only_ complaint about the gas mileage? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/22 "2004-06-11T01:39:01Z")
> [@Beelzebubba](#): > > 1. **They’re safer.** Maybe - for the driver of the vehicle in question that is. Though I must confess I’ve never run into anyone who purchased a Suburban over a Miata for safety reasons. I don’t think the stats agree with you regarding safety. I know that in insurance industry tests, SUV’s did not perform well at all. Minor bumps that sedans would take caused thousands of dollars damage to SUV’s. I believe it was because the SUV’s don’t have the stringent requirements for bumpers that sedans have. (I don’t think pickups do either) I’m sure one feels safer, but that _may_ be an illusion. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/23 "2004-06-11T02:30:34Z")
I also think the safety stats are a bit misleading. Vehicles are tested against immovable objects (except the side crash test I guess). The big SUV’s tend to do worse than some medium cars. But, aren’t most accidents car to car? I drive a mid-sized SUV. An older one. No air bags or anti-lock breaks. For myself, I don’t see safety as an issue. Utility is. If safety was an issue, I believe that bigger is generally better. Not always. But if I have to play random cards, I’ll take the face cards. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/24 "2004-06-11T02:57:16Z")
The _real_ pisser is that the Model T retailed for something like $495, try finding a new domestically built car for less than $10K. You can’t. I’ll now rub salt in the wound by pointing out that Buckminster Fuller designed a car which seated 11 and got the same gas mileage as the Model T, but could do 120+ MPH. [Cite.](http://www.thirteen.org/bucky/car.html) Mind you, I won’t even go into the low cost improvements [Preston Tucker](http://www.tuckerclub.org/) claimed to be introducing into automobiles when he tried to start a car company. (Though, it’s possible that they would have led to better fuel economy for _any_ vehicle by now.) IAC, Ford cars suck ass. I’ve owned 3 of them, and I’d rather have my eyes gouged out by grapefruit spoons than own another one. ---
**Author:** ![mike1dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@mike1dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mike1dog)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/25 "2004-06-11T02:59:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Probably not quite the info you’re looking for (it doesn’t show fatalities over time), but here’s some data on vehicle fatalities–scroll down to the table. That has to be the silliest comparison article I’ve ever seen. Comparing a Boxster with a Trailblazer, or with almost any other vehicle, in terms of handling is just plain silly. It makes me wonder about the whole article. Let’s see, I don’t like SUVs so I’ll compare them to one of the best handling cars available, and when it doesn’t measure up I will make it seem like the SUV is a horrid unsafe monstrosity. One of the Boxsters main attributes is its terriffic handling, read any review of the car to see. I guess Consumer’s Union couldn’t find a Ferrarri that day. Just try to tow your boat or carry more than one passenger in the Boxster. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/26 "2004-06-11T03:20:00Z")
Any time an SUV hits something that will yield (another car, a fence, a deer, etc), the greater mass of the SUV will be an advantage. Many SUVs now have excellent crash ratings. Our Escape has front and side curtain airbags. Another trend which is going unnoticed in these debates is that cars are getting heavier, and the average weight of SUVs is getting lower. It’s not uncommon to find a sedan approaching or exceeding 4000 lbs, and it’s also quite common to find an SUV weighing less than 3500. In these debates, people always seem to discuss the behemoths like the Lincoln Navigator, the Hummer, or the Excursion. But more representative of SUVs these days are the Ford Escape, Hyundai Santa Fe, Toyota RAV-4 or Highlander, Infiniti RX-330, and other compact and mid-size SUVs. This class of vehicles gets decent mileage and has a lot of safety features. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/27 "2004-06-11T04:08:55Z")
I live at 39 degrees north in the Rockies. It’s summer time now. I don’t usually expect snow in June. We just got a half inch. Yep, I need a 4x4. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/28 "2004-06-11T11:25:14Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > I don’t think the stats agree with you regarding safety. I know that in insurance industry tests, SUV’s did not perform well at all. Minor bumps that sedans would take caused thousands of dollars damage to SUV’s. I believe it was because the SUV’s don’t have the stringent requirements for bumpers that sedans have. (I don’t think pickups do either) > > I’m sure one feels safer, but that _may_ be an illusion. You may be right - but, I was recently in accident invovling the front of my Ford Escort vs. the back of her Ford \ Looking at her truck, you couldn’t even tell it had been hit. My car, on the other hand, was smashed. The insurance company totalled it. One of the reasons I decided to buy the Jeep. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/29 "2004-06-11T12:55:13Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] The _real_ I’ll now rub salt in the wound by pointing out that Buckminster Fuller designed a car which seated 11 and got the same gas mileage as the Model T, but could do 120+ MPH. [Cite.](http://www.thirteen.org/bucky/car.html) /QUOTE] A three wheel, rear steering car that goes 120 miles an hour? It crashed :eek: Heya Tuckerfan, I’m all for inovation, but that sounded like an accident waiting to happen. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/30 "2004-06-11T13:47:18Z")
> [@Eleusis](#): > > What, you can’t handle all the Reagan tributes, so you have to bash the next oldest living former Republican president??? > > OOhhhhh, _that_ Ford. 😉 > > Well, if you wanted a 20 horsepower car, you could probably do a lot better than 25 mpg. I came in going what the hell? What did I do? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/31 "2004-06-11T14:43:17Z")
> [@FordPrefect](#): > > I came in going what the hell? What did I do? You didn’t invent a ‘Prefect’ car that would be ‘Perfect’ for everyone. Didn’t Henry Ford say “You can have it in any color you want, as long as you want black”. Or is that an UL. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/32 "2004-06-11T15:19:37Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > I didn’t see it mentioned in the thread, but I could have skipped it if someone else has already noted it: One reason for the popularity of SUVs is the decline of the full-sized station waggon. The SUV fulfills many of the same requirements for passengers, cargo capacity. So true. Growing up, one of our family cars was always a station wagon. Our '72 Chrysler Town and Country wagon was bigger than my Pathfinder. I know the Chrysler got worse mileage and probably weighed as much if not more. The car was basically a piece of shit. My Pathfinder now has 180,000 miles on it and is running strong. Things are improving. Not getting worse. > [@htns](#): > > Fair enough. A few points, though: > > 1. Don’t park your rebodied aircraft carrier next to my little Honda. So this gripe must also apply to mini-vans and trucks. Fair enough. Really. Drive responsibly and you won’t have any problems. I can’t see past other SUV’s and trucks when I’m in a parking space. And I drive an SUV. It’s really not a big deal. Back out slowly (like you should be doing anyway) and you won’t have a problem. I agree that some people follow too close. And that the headlights can be a problem. It makes it worse if the vehicle following is bigger and has a longer stopping distance. Stupid. Maybe, people in taller vehicles tend to follow closer because they can see the traffic ahead easier and have a better indication of what traffic is doing. I would probably leave more room between me and a semi, than I would a smaller car that I can see over. I don’t see this happening myself, because I rarely drive busy highways. Just a theory. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/33 "2004-06-11T15:38:06Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > The _real_ pisser is that the Model T retailed for something like $495, try finding a new domestically built car for less than $10K. You can’t. > > . Wow. What did the anti-lock brakes cost on the T? How about A/C? They managed to squeeze in seatbelts and smog control, too? The T was a tall go-kart. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/34 "2004-06-11T15:54:33Z")
I just had to snicker at this bit from **Hunter Hawk’s** above-posted link ([http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004\_01\_12\_a\_suv.html](http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html)). > [@](#): > > According to Bradsher, internal industry market research concluded that S.U.V.s tend to be bought by people who are insecure, vain, self-centered, and self-absorbed, who are frequently nervous about their marriages, and who lack confidence in their driving skills. (Hey, don’t yell at me, I’m not an internal auto industry market research person, I didn’t write it!) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/35 "2004-06-11T16:08:52Z")
GRRRR… SDMB ate my last post. And I’m outa here. Vacation time. I have a plane to catch. I could debate SUV’s all day, but I gotta go. Considering that last statement, I probably should go. Take care. ---
**Author:** ![htns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba8739/32.png) [@htns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/htns)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/36 "2004-06-13T19:31:59Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Considering that last statement, I probably should go. > > Take care. Don’t forget to wipe. 😃 😃 😃 😃 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433/37 "2004-06-13T20:01:25Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > Wow. What did the anti-lock brakes cost on the T? How about A/C? They managed to squeeze in seatbelts and smog control, too? > The T was a tall go-kart. Yeah, the T was a tall go kart, but do you _need_ anti-lock brakes? No, they’re nice, make the car safer (provided the idiot behind the wheel understands that they _won’t_ bring the car from 95 MPH to 0 MPH in 2 seconds), but they’re not necessary. Neither is most of the gimmicks that come on cars these days: power doors, windows, seats, heated seats, heated mirrors, dual climate controls, etc. Even _if_ you decide to load a car up with all those things, there’s still ways of keeping the costs down. There’s a huge variety of nuts, bolts and other fastners on cars, all different sizes and shapes. Force the engineers to use only a handful of different sizes instead of the hundreds, if not thousands, they use now, and you’ll see a cost savings since they don’t have to have so many different tools to build or repair a car. A lot of the mechanical parts which the average car owner never sees, vary from model to model by the same manufacturer. There’s no _need_ for that at all, really. Who cares if the door mechanism for a Chevy is the same as that on a Caddy? Why should the brake calipers on a Buick be different than those on a Chevy which weighs roughly the same? Heck, some models have different size brake offerings, why? That’s twice as much design work, twice as much inventory, for what should be the same car. Scrap it. Ever read any histories of the automobile industry? Fascinating stuff. The US car makers only think about building a car in the most efficient manner when they’re on the verge of bankruptcy. And despite what many of them claim, they _don’t_ have a culture which inspires creativity. _All Corvettes Are Red_ shows the struggles that GM went through to develop a new Corvette, even though the car is a cash cow, and the signature car by GM it very nearly died on the vine because the brass at GM weren’t “car people.” Trust me, the costs of a modern car could be made much lower, but it won’t happen until someone comes along and _really_ decides to shake up the industry. Preston Tucker almost pulled it off, and no one’s had the balls to try it since then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-hell-with-you-ford/249433.md?page=1)