# To Liberal: I'm not pitting you.. I'm just confused **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 24, 2007, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489 "2007-02-24T07:42:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![stretch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@stretch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stretch)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2007, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/61 "2007-02-24T21:01:56Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Well, you’ll pardon me if I make up my own mind, I hope. I’m never persuaded by the ‘everybody thinks so’ argument and don’t intend to start. FWIW, **Polycarp** seems to think well of **Liberal** and **Poly** seems to be much respected. So there’s a bit of a dichotomy going on here. I still think much of this seems to be due to the very aggressive atheist mindset that this board has but I’ll continue to observe and I’ll make my own assessment. And I still think that someone’s past behaviour is a pitiful excuse to pile on to a perfectly innocent post. I’m fascinated by psychology, and if ever there were an example of the ‘horns’ effect, this sure seems to be it. I’m just interested in how people think it’s logical to operate on the ‘I hate you, therefore I plan to hate everything you say, no matter what’ principle. I loathe Bush but I have to agree with his immigration policy. I don’t know what small bit of his pitiful brain is working, but apparently a few cells are functional and I hate to admit it, but it would be petty and stupid of me to not. [/QUOTE] How about we keep on trucking with the information we have, and you can react to **Lib** the way you want. **Lib** will kiss your ass for awhile (see post 57) until you do something to piss him off. And you’ll probably never know exactly what it is. One day he may ask “Who are you?” and start accusing you of stalking him on the board. You just never know for sure how he’ll react and when he’ll turn on you. I don’t hate **Lib** or everything he posts. Sometimes he posts something really valuable that isn’t couched in “look at me” terms, and that’s just great. I do hate that he frequently derails threads to make sure that he becomes the center of attention. I watch out for it. I try not to invoke **Liberal** unnecessarily–mentioning his name in a thread will bring him in and a hijacking is sure to follow. Of course you should make your own decisions about him. That’s what the rest of us did. ETA: The fact that **Poly** likes **Lib** is also informed by knowing him in person and letting that smooth out **Lib** ’s rougher posting edges. The rest of us pretty much don’t feel the need to let **Lib** off the hook for his behavior because he’s nice to **Poly** when they’ve see each other. \*\*Mal \*\* and **smiling bandit** : I take your point but disagree that the OP did a bait and switch–my reading is that he was honest but that as he continued to grow, so did his skepticism. He isn’t even sure there is no higher power so remains open to the possibility. If the OP comes in as says he was a hard-core atheist when he met his wife, but let her think he still was slightly Christian, then I’ll retract my previous post because that is bait and switch. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2007, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/62 "2007-02-24T21:05:06Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] Which brings us neatly back to the point I made in my first post in this thread: you won’t ever find out if he did. [/QUOTE] I think you can ask the mods by email and they’ll tell you whose sock they banned. They just don’t want this discussed on the boards. [QUOTE=Kevbo] I’ll cut him some slack over the fact that QSS is PRR advanced by one letter…so when a guest shows up with the initials RTT, liberal might very well take notice. [/QUOTE] May I suggest **Radio Telegraph and Telephone**? ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2007, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/63 "2007-02-24T21:08:36Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I was going to order the book with his essay upon your recommendation, but it is apparently out of print. I’ll keep an eye out. (I don’t do E-Bay, so I haven’t checked there. But I can get someone to buy it on my behalf from such a source, if necessary.) [/QUOTE] You may have to find it at a library. I don’t see a source on the Web though I don’t have the sort of library card that allows me access to scholarly databases. I read it for an IR essay and got it in the university library. Just checked my local university and they have it. Your local library might also be able to ILL it. I found one copy on [abebooks.com](http://abebooks.com) for $20. Pity it’s so hard to find. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2007, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/64 "2007-02-24T21:13:14Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] I’m never persuaded by the ‘everybody thinks so’ argument and don’t intend to start. [/quote] Um, yeah. Clearly you don’t care what anyone else thinks. > [@Quiddity Glomfuster](#): > > FWIW, **Polycarp** seems to think well of **Liberal** and **Poly** seems to be much respected. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2007, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/65 "2007-02-24T21:29:13Z")
[QUOTE=stretch] \*\*Mal \*\* and **smiling bandit** : I take your point but disagree that the OP did a bait and switch–my reading is that he was honest but that as he continued to grow, so did his skepticism. He isn’t even sure there is no higher power so remains open to the possibility. If the OP comes in as says he was a hard-core atheist when he met his wife, but let her think he still was slightly Christian, then I’ll retract my previous post because that is bait and switch. [/QUOTE] I’ll buy that, with the proviso that he’s stated that he was baptised only behind his mother’s back on his aunt’s doing, and I think that offers some evidence that his claim to have been “raised Christian” was slightly economical with the truth. Not that it’s very much of my business anyway, but what the hey, this is a Pit thread. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2007, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/66 "2007-02-24T21:52:19Z")
[QUOTE=Waverly] Um, yeah. Clearly you don’t care what anyone else thinks. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: The point was that I’m weighing all opinions against what I see. ---
**Author:** ![Key\_Lime\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/48db29/32.png) [@Key\_Lime\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Key_Lime_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2007, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/67 "2007-02-24T21:54:40Z")
And here I thought it was obvious that **William Strunk Jr.** was the new PRR. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2007, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/68 "2007-02-24T22:07:45Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Well, you’ll pardon me if I make up my own mind, I hope. I’m never persuaded by the ‘everybody thinks so’ argument and don’t intend to start. [/quote] You lack a great deal of information that many of the rest of us have. You’re free to make up your own mind, of course, but it’s absurd for you to criticize others because they have opinions based on a long and sordid history you are entirely ignorant of. > [@](#): > > I still think much of this seems to be due to the very aggressive atheist mindset that this board You would be wrong. There are many other things going on here, and the issue of atheism is only a small part of it. Again, you lack perspective, grasshopper. > [@](#): > > And I still think that someone’s past behaviour is a pitiful excuse to pile on to a perfectly innocent post. You think this is about a single post? Which one? > [@](#): > > I’m just interested in how people think it’s logical to operate on the ‘I hate you, therefore I plan to hate everything you say, no matter what’ principle. Who, specifically, is doing that? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2007, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/69 "2007-02-24T22:12:25Z")
> [@Stretch](#): > > I try not to invoke Liberal unnecessarily–mentioning his name in a thread will bring him in and a hijacking is sure to follow. Right, but not by me. When my name is invoked and I see it, I do as I did in this thread — I answer the person’s question. Klaatu had already hijacked this thread to hell. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2007, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/70 "2007-02-24T22:23:29Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] You lack a great deal of information that many of the rest of us have. You’re free to make up your own mind, of course, but it’s absurd for you to criticize others because they have opinions based on a long and sordid history you are entirely ignorant of. [/quote] You are missing the point, I fear. People are welcome to have opinions. However, when their opinions colour their judgement to the point that they can’t read any post from the object of their hate without going into paroxysms of vituperation, there’s a problem. I’m not impressed, I have to tell you. > [@](#): > > You would be wrong. There are many other things going on here, and the issue of atheism is only a small part of it. Again, you lack perspective, grasshopper. Well, the day my perspective is so badly skewed that I allow myself to be unfairly judgemental of every word from someone’s mouth just because I don’t like that person is the day I hope someone takes me out and shoots me because it’s against my principles. See my example of GW above. I am rigorous in my expectation of fairness - of myself, especially, but also of others. Life is unfair enough; people don’t need to add to it. > [@](#): > > You think this is about a single post? Which one? No, I’m saying that all the guy did was post one post in this thread and the attacks started again. In this thread, **Liberal** posted > [@](#): > > I feel that, given your life experience, it is a perfectly reasonable position. Incidentally, I don’t believe in the Bible either. Klaatu attacked and the pile-on began. > [@](#): > > Who, specifically, is doing that? Not doing that, thanks. Go do a search on posts by Liberal and then make a list of names from what follows if you like. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/71 "2007-02-24T22:31:32Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] :rolleyes: The point was that I’m weighing all opinions against what I see. [/QUOTE] Get thee to the optometrist right-away. Or in lieu of that, since you are now a member, make some heavy use of the search function. Should keep you busy for a day or ten. Depends on just how fascinating you find the posts/actions of the SDMB’s biggest attention, erm…_seeker_? Yeah that’s it “seeker.” \* ::::I’m being so darn polite I hardly recognize my usual self::::\* Lord, is that you? * * * Sorry, **Lib** , but that was right into my wheelhouse and with little velocity and/or spin behind it. AKA a perfect set-up. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/72 "2007-02-25T00:24:12Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Because I’ve instructed Tris that if PRR posts as a sock to give the money to a charity of his choice. [/QUOTE] How would you know, with enough certainty to deny PRR the wager? What if you are wrong? Isn’t the fact that QSS is still here proof that he has a different IP address than PRR? How else would you know for sure? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/73 "2007-02-25T00:56:15Z")
**Quiddity,** I pretty much love you forever. And I agree with you. I don’t get this. I don’t get why it’s so important. I respect that I have been here probably even less time than you have, and there is history I don’t know. But it all seems like very irrational vitriol being leveled at **Liberal** … to the point that everything he says is considered shit, even innocuous stuff like the belief that faith isn’t a choice (which I agree with, pretty much)… to the point where it’s not the renunciation of a single behavior or string of behaviors but renunciation of a whole person. I find that troubling. I don’t mean that to cause offense to others… I openly acknowledge there is history I don’t know. But how much can one person’s posting really do to you as an individual, if you don’t know that person? Has he destroyed lives somehow with his words? Is the whole board really wrecked because of one person? Or is it this continuous hateful speech that goes on and on forever, back and forth, that really wears down the integrity of the board? I’ve seen this happen in other forums, and I’ve seen it ruin other, wonderful forums… I would hate to see that happen here, because while I may not agree with everyone and I may share very different opinions at times, I do consider everyone here a gift and an opportunity to learn. That includes **Liberal** and it includes **prr** and everyone in between. You don’t have to agree with someone in order to get something valuable from interacting with them. Sorry, I’m just one of those people bothered by angry confrontation. It almost always seems like so much unnecessary pain. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/74 "2007-02-25T01:02:13Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] You are missing the point, I fear. People are welcome to have opinions. However, when their opinions colour their judgement to the point that they can’t read any post from the object of their hate without going into paroxysms of vituperation, there’s a problem. I’m not impressed, I have to tell you. [/QUOTE] Well, by God, those us who have been here longer than three months had better knuckle right down and start trying to impress you, then. While we work diligently on that, you might want to consider lowering your lofty Seat of Judgment in case you fall out of it. From its current height it looks like it might be a long hard fall. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/75 "2007-02-25T01:03:38Z")
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] Sorry, I’m just one of those people bothered by angry confrontation. It almost always seems like so much unnecessary pain. ☹ [/QUOTE] Are you ever in the wrong forum, then. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/76 "2007-02-25T01:21:16Z")
I’ve been around long enough to be familiar with patterns here and I think that **Quiddity’s** point has been well made for _this_ thread. Who is she to speak up? She’s paid her dues – literally. > [@](#): > > **Colibri** : You are correct in thinking that someone should perhaps get a second, third, or even fourth chance. After the dozenth, however, all bets are off. And **Liberal** is well into the double digits. Many of us wouldn’t be around without those double digit chances. Not all of us are as level headed, clear thinking and even tempered as you. Maybe we don’t control our words as well as you do and need more leeway. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/77 "2007-02-25T01:21:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you ever in the wrong forum, then. Yeah. But… I mean, I’ve gotten pissy with people in the Pit before. It’s one thing to argue heatedly about an issue, even if you end up insulting someone over their inability to follow a point, people get angry and blow up, but I almost always see the end of these threads being innocuous banter, the vitriol water under the bridge… generally the argument remains focused on the issue at hand, and there’s a clear distinction between the poster’s opinion and the poster him/herself. There’s a difference, I think, between that and what’s happening here. For one thing, the OP just wanted a question answered and it turned into a complete “crucify **Liberal** ” hijack. It would be one thing if the thread were, “I Pit **Liberal** ” (you know, there was a whole huge thread on that already) but it’s not. It’s “Hey **Liberal** , can you clarify here?” And somehow that turned into this. Can someone point me to some specific post history (not counting the **prr** thing) that would indicate why people are so righteously pissed off at this guy, to the point of denouncing not just his opinions but him as a human being? If my short time on this board has resulted in me just being totally ignorant of The Truth, then I’m willing to be educated. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/78 "2007-02-25T01:43:39Z")
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] Yeah. But… I mean, I’ve gotten pissy with people in the Pit before. It’s one thing to argue heatedly about an issue, even if you end up insulting someone over their inability to follow a point, people get angry and blow up, but I almost always see the end of these threads being innocuous banter, the vitriol water under the bridge… generally the argument remains focused on the issue at hand, and there’s a clear distinction between the poster’s opinion and the poster him/herself. There’s a difference, I think, between that and what’s happening here. For one thing, the OP just wanted a question answered and it turned into a complete “crucify **Liberal** ” hijack. It would be one thing if the thread were, “I Pit **Liberal** ” (you know, there was a whole huge thread on that already) but it’s not. It’s “Hey **Liberal** , can you clarify here?” And somehow that turned into this. Can someone point me to some specific post history (not counting the **prr** thing) that would indicate why people are so righteously pissed off at this guy, to the point of denouncing not just his opinions but him as a human being? If my short time on this board has resulted in me just being totally ignorant of The Truth, then I’m willing to be educated. [/QUOTE] It is a lot of stuff in the past; most predates my time on the board. But even over the time of my stay, Liberal has proved the Drama Queen Extraordinaire. He is well known for thread shitting, in the middle of an ongoing debate he announced he was dying, he posted a weird ATMB thread demanding to be banned and of course his latest act of buying off an annoying poster. He has a rep, I believe deserved for making threads about him. Indeed the PRR final thread had nothing to do with Lib and he managed to make it as much about him as PRR. All this said, and it was probably too much, you should keep an open mind and not worry about the posters that are fed up with him or lost any remaining respect for him. At the same time you and **Quiddity Glomfuster** need to understand that there are many reason for people to have little patience with him and even a reason for why people give him no slack anymore. Jim ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/79 "2007-02-25T02:02:07Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] All this said, and it was probably too much, you should keep an open mind and not worry about the posters that are fed up with him or lost any remaining respect for him. At the same time you and **Quiddity Glomfuster** need to understand that there are many reason for people to have little patience with him and even a reason for why people give him no slack anymore. Jim [/QUOTE] And there you have the fairest summary of the issue. I agree completely with Jim – make up your own minds, but don’t prejudge _ **either way** _ until you’ve observed the board’s dynamics for a while. This is, by the way, in no way intended as criticism of you two for being new here. The Dope is in fact, from what I’ve seen, remarkably welcoming of new members and not at all inclined to brush them off rudely as NOOBs. Rather, this is a situation where people who have interacted with this particular person over a considerable stretch of time will inevitably have a more informed perspective based on the accumulated evidence from those interactions. Whether you come to agree with the resulting negative assessments expressed by a number of Dopers, or remain unconvinced of their validity, is entirely up to you. I simply suggest that it would be wise to allow time and further experience to further inform your own assessments. I will note, as anecdotal information only, that my opinions concerning this person began where you are now and have evolved as my own particular experience dictated. You are both, from what I’ve seen so far, intelligent and perceptive individuals, and I do and will continue to respect your opinions whether or not they align with mine on any particular issue. Including this one. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489/80 "2007-02-25T02:10:09Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] :rolleyes: The point was that I’m weighing all opinions against what I see. [/QUOTE] And would you dare to assume that I’m not reacting to what _I_ have seen? And what I’ve seen is Lib metaphorically stroking off on this board for years. If there is a sock on this board, my first assumption is that it is Lib’s so that he can tack himself up on his savior’s own cross and play martyr over the broken deal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-liberal-im-not-pitting-you-im-just-confused/393489.md?page=5)