# To Mask or Not to Mask, that is the Question **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [August 12, 2020, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910 "2020-08-12T18:08:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/142 "2020-10-07T20:27:47Z")
It’s interesting. I made a bunch of fabric masks for the family (and others) back at the beginning, but now, with greater reopening, and fewer supply problems, I’ve ordered KN95s, to be more protected. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/143 "2020-10-07T21:18:04Z")
This [really nice summary article](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8?utm_source=Nature+Briefing&utm_campaign=90e86e2293-briefing-dy-20201007&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c9dfd39373-90e86e2293-43912509) has just appeared in _Nature_, addressing a lot the stuff discussed up thread. Its not paywalled. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/144 "2020-10-07T22:05:29Z")
I like the mask you’re wearing in your avatar! ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/145 "2020-10-08T08:04:34Z")
Oh the shame, the shame of it all… ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/146 "2020-10-09T10:34:49Z")
According to a CDC report, mask wearing and closures led to a 75% decrease in Covid-19 cases. > **[Arizona saw a 75% drop in COVID-19 cases after mask mandate, closures](https://www.deseret.com/u-s-world/2020/10/8/21505713/coronavirus-arizona-covid-19-cdc-study?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=deseretnews&utm_campaign=facebookpage)** > > A new study from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has a new study out about Arizona. It took two months to see the decrease according to the report from the CDC. > [@](#): > > [Arizona](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6940e3.htm?s_cid=mm6940e3_w) saw a 75% drop in new coronavirus cases after the state added local mask mandates, restrictions on public events and closures of bars, gyms, movie theaters and restaurants in the middle of June, according to a new report from the [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6940e3.htm?s_cid=mm6940e3_w) > > - The measures were added in mid-June. > - The state saw a 75% drop less than two months later on Aug. 7. > . . . > > ### The takeaway: > > - The [CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6940e3.htm?s_cid=mm6940e3_w)said: “Widespread implementation and enforcement of sustained community mitigation measures, including mask wearing, informed by state and local officials’ continual data monitoring and collaboration can help prevent transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and decrease the numbers of COVID-19 cases.” ---
**Author:** ![SayTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@SayTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SayTwo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/147 "2020-10-09T12:17:39Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > According to a CDC report, mask wearing and closures led to a 75% decrease in Covid-19 cases. Um, that’s not exactly what it says. This is what it says: > The findings in this report are subject to at least four limitations. First, the relationship between mitigation measures and changes in case counts are temporal correlations and should not be interpreted to infer causality. And of course it does. If it didn’t, it wouldn’t be anything even _remotely_ approaching science. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/148 "2020-10-09T15:08:40Z")
> [@SayTwo](#): > > Um, that’s not exactly what it says. This is what it says: > > > The findings in this report are subject to at least four limitations. First, the relationship between mitigation measures and changes in case counts are temporal correlations and should not be interpreted to infer causality. > > And of course it does. If it didn’t, it wouldn’t be anything even _remotely_ approaching science. You forgot the next sentence. > [@](#): > > Other factors that might have influenced the rate of change (e.g., travel restrictions, neighboring state mitigation measures, and individual choices to reduce movement before implementation of mandates) cannot be ruled out. What they’re saying is that more than one factor might explain the change. It’s still true that mask wearing and closures led to a 75% decrease in Covid-19 cases. It might not have been _the_ cause or the only cause but the policy led to a decrease in Covid-19 cases. This study taken by itself may not prove that mask wearing is decreasing the cases of Covid-19, but there are more and more studies which are leading in that direction. It also says this > [@](#): > > **What are the implications for public health practice?** > > Widespread implementation and enforcement of sustained community mitigation measures, including mask wearing, informed by state and local officials’ continual data monitoring and collaboration can help prevent transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and decrease the numbers of COVID-19 cases. ---
**Author:** ![SayTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@SayTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SayTwo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/149 "2020-10-09T19:54:04Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > It’s still true that mask wearing and closures led to a 75% decrease in Covid-19 cases. No, it is not. That statement is not at all true. At least, not under _any_ definition of truth that would remotely qualify as science. Or, not as real and genuine science, the kind that isn’t politicized, argued from emotion, and practiced in the realms of media and public opinion. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/150 "2020-10-09T20:32:32Z")
What can be said, and what the paper says, is that mask wearing and closures _preceded_ a 75% drop. Other potentially related things also preceded the drop. It is not proven that any of those factors are causative, but it is useful to know that the data appears to be consistent with masks and closures having a positive effect. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/151 "2020-10-10T02:41:01Z")
> [@SayTwo](#): > > No, it is not. That statement is not at all true. At least, not under _any_ definition of truth that would remotely qualify as science. Or, not as real and genuine science, the kind that isn’t politicized, argued from emotion, and practiced in the realms of media and public opinion. A correlation can be significant if there is a scientific basis and it can be replicated. Both of these are supported by data. There are several studies out there demonstrating the main route of transmission (respiratory droplets and aerosols), who is most contagious, and the environments that promote spread. There is also tons of data out there showing how masks work. There is also correlations outside of Arizona showing that mitigations that follow science (mask mandates, closing bars and closing or reducing loads in restaurants) result in large drops in cases. This is well known. I don’t know why you’re saying that something doesn’t qualify as science. Aren’t you keeping up with the literature on this? [https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8) ---
**Author:** ![SayTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@SayTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SayTwo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/152 "2020-10-10T03:57:06Z")
Of course I’m keeping up with the literature on it. And of course, as I know you know, there are many, many other examples of places with different interventions that have experienced essentially the same trajectory of disease. I’m glad that you yourself mentioned that we should take into account those other examples, natural experiments or not, but you will note that the study didn’t. Nor did it mention compliance, in this specific case, to any of the intervention measures in Arizona. Nor did it mention scope of testing, at all, alongside its use of case counts as ‘evidence’. It’s junk science. Junk science. Over and over and over again. Parading on a very high horse of morality at the moment, else it would never – never, ever, _ever_ – be accepted, in the least, in any legitimate scientific discussion on any other issue (save a very notable few) at any other time. It’s junk. It’s bordering very closely on propaganda. And I’m sick of it. This is from people who have a professional obligation to know better. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/153 "2020-10-10T05:05:52Z")
> [@SayTwo](#): > > Of course I’m keeping up with the literature on it. And of course, as I know you know, there are many, many other examples of places with different interventions that have experienced essentially the same trajectory of disease. I’m glad that you yourself mentioned that we should take into account those other examples, natural experiments or not, but you will note that the study didn’t. Nor did it mention compliance, in this specific case, to any of the intervention measures in Arizona. Nor did it mention scope of testing, at all, alongside its use of case counts as ‘evidence’. I don’t think you’re keeping up with the literature because, if you did, you’d know that the interventions used successfully throughout the US have been pretty much the same. They’re the same because they were based on science. These are the following: 1) mask mandates, 2) shutting down bars, 3) restricting large gatherings, and 4) reducing restaurant capacities. This is exactly what Arizona did. San Antonio, Dallas and Houston did pretty much the same interventions a little before the state followed suit. Cases followed the same trajectory as Arizona. They peaked about two weeks after mask mandates. Closing bars and reducing restaurants actually came about a week after the mask mandates. Two months later, they’re back to where they started before the surge without a need for a lockdown. The data comes from the Arizona Department of Health which is linked in the CDC article. You can also see all their data on the ADHS dashboard. So they don’t have to “mention” certain things in the article because the data is easily available at the link. Regarding compliance, that’s the whole point of a mandate. A business that doesn’t comply with mask mandates or 25-50% capacity (for restaurants) can be closed down by the health department. Individuals were either fined or sent to jail in Arizona depending on the county. It states this in the CDC article. Regarding testing and case definitions, this all came from the state which is linked in the CDC article. I don’t know what you mean by ‘scope’ of testing but test positivity rates tell you if there’s more cases out there than they’re catching. This is also available at ADHS. The positivity rates timeline in Arizona follow exactly the confirmed cases timeline peaking at the end of June at 20%. That means that at the peak, there were probably many more cases out their than they knew about. Again, this is exactly what happened in San Antonio except we got as high as 24%. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/154 "2020-10-11T12:18:01Z")
> [@SayTwo](#): > > It’s junk science. Junk science. Over and over and over again. Parading on a very high horse of morality at the moment, else it would never – never, ever, _ever_ – be accepted, in the least, in any legitimate scientific discussion on any other issue (save a very notable few) at any other time. It’s junk. It’s bordering very closely on propaganda. And I’m sick of it. This is from people who have a professional obligation to know better. And climate change isn’t real either, so nyahh! I suppose just because prosecuting drunk drivers doesn’t lead to totally accident-free highways we should leave them alone than, right? ---
**Author:** ![brilliantnerd2050](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9a140/32.png) [@brilliantnerd2050](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brilliantnerd2050)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/155 "2020-10-12T17:53:01Z")
To mask definitely for me. You can get infected just for one minidrop of spit from someone. I think is responsible to wear ir. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/156 "2020-10-29T00:45:50Z")
More mask reports and studies. Kansas mask wearing communities had less of a rise in infection rates than non-mask wearing communities. > **[KU study concludes county mask mandates in Kansas have stalled major rise in...](https://johnsoncountypost.com/2020/10/25/ku-study-concludes-county-mask-mandates-in-kansas-have-stalled-major-rise-in-covid-19-104860/)** > > By Tim Carpenter TOPEKA — Researchers at the University of Kansas report counties with mask mandates thwarted significant escalation in transmission of COVID-19 and counties operating without a requirement people wear a face covering suffered steady... > [@](#): > > The KU researchers demonstrated Kansas counties without the mask order experienced a surge in coronavirus infection rates that climbed from about 10 cases per 100,0000 in July to nearly 40 cases per 100,000 in October. The number of cases for counties covered by the mask order plateaued since July at around 20 cases per 100,000. Tennesse mask wearing communities experienced less of a spread of infection than non-mask wearing communities. > **[Study finds areas without mask requirements have larger increase in COVID-19...](https://news.vumc.org/2020/10/27/study-finds-areas-without-mask-requirements-have-larger-increase-in-covid-19-hospitalizations/)** > > All areas of Tennessee have seen a resurgence in hospitalized COVID-19 patients since early October, but hospitals that draw patients from counties without masking requirements are experiencing much sharper increases, according to a new analysis from... > [@](#): > > All areas of Tennessee have seen a resurgence in hospitalized COVID-19 patients since early October, but hospitals that draw patients from counties without masking requirements are experiencing much sharper increases, according to a new analysis from researchers at Vanderbilt University Medical Center and Vanderbilt University School of Medicine. A model shows that universal mask wearing could save 130K lives. > **[Here’s how many lives could be saved if the US had universal face mask use](https://www.deseret.com/u-s-world/2020/10/27/21536704/coronavirus-face-mask-covid-lives-deaths?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=deseretnews&utm_campaign=facebookpage)** > > A new report from scientists the medical journal Nature revealed about 130,000 lives could be saved. > [@](#): > > [Scientists](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-1132-9)conducted simulations about what will happen during winter 2020 of the coronavirus pandemic. > > [One simulation result](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-1132-9) suggested that universal mask use could save 129,574 lives from Sept. 22 to February 2021. > > A lesser adoption of masks — around 85% — could lead to 95,814 saved lives from the pandemic, the scientists said in a recent published report in [Nature.](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-1132-9) A study shows that people who refuse to wear masks show a higher level of antisocial traits. > **[Not wearing a mask linked to antisocial traits, study finds](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/mask-wearing-anti-social-personality-traits-study-brazil-b1347252.html)** > > Those who don’t comply with Covid-19 containment measures were found to be more callous, hostile and deceitful > [@](#): > > [Scientists](https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/scientists) in [Brazil](https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/brazil) have linked resistance to [Covid-19](https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/covid-19) safety measures, such as wearing a [mask](https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/mask), with antisocial personality traits. > > Their [study](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886920305377) was the first of its kind in [Latin America](https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/latin-america) and surveyed over 1,500 people aged 18-73. > . . . > The antisocial profile was linked to higher scores in the personality questions related to “callousness, deceitfulness, hostility, impulsivity, irresponsibility, manipulativeness, and risk-taking”, antisocial traits which, the study notes, “are typically present in people diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD)". This group also had lower scores in affective resonance. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/157 "2020-11-03T03:40:16Z")
The New York Times has a cool [interactive](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/10/30/science/wear-mask-covid-particles-ul.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&fbclid=IwAR0ilw6S8htL08g1BxO4VPD9uViCv-2NMbAjBavHm4-UiwyzNtJt5-xkEhs) on the physics behind masks. Here’s also a nice [video](https://youtu.be/eAdanPfQdCA) on the physics of N95 masks. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/158 "2020-11-03T03:42:59Z")
Here’s another video. “[Why Masks Work BETTER Than You’d Think](https://youtu.be/Y47t9qLc9I4).” ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2020, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/159 "2020-11-15T01:12:54Z")
More places are making masks mandatory. > **[North Dakota enacts statewide mask mandate, restrictions on businesses as...](https://www.grandforksherald.com/newsmd/north-dakota-enacts-statewide-mask-mandate-restrictions-on-businesses-as-covid-19-outbreak-rages)** > > The order from interim State Health Officer Dirk Wilke goes into effect on Saturday, Nov. 14, and will remain on the books through Dec. 14. This applies to indoor and outdoor public setting where social distancing can’t be applied. The fines have some teeth. People can be fined up to $1,000 for a first offense, although the governor is stressing education and reserving fines for the most egregious offenses. > **[WV Gov. Justice announces ‘ultra mandatory’ mask order, closes school for...](https://www.wboy.com/top-stories/watch-live-gov-justice-schedules-fridays-virtual-covid-19-briefing-for-11-a-m/)** > > CHARLESTON, W.Va. – Comparing the more than 240,000-plus COVID-19 deaths in the U.S to the more than 58,000 Americans who were killed in the Vietnam War over 13 years, West Virginia Gov. Jim … This one only applies to indoors in public buildings. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2020, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/160 "2020-11-15T06:55:52Z")
Since the South Dakota gov made lots of silly noises over the last few months it will be awfully hard for her to institute any mask mandates. It’ll be interesting to see if she does. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2020, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910/161 "2020-11-15T07:28:42Z")
I’m also wondering if the Presidential election has changed anything for any of the states. I’m hearing from experts on the news that either the state and local governments institute mask mandates or they will have to lockdown at some point because of all of the hospital overruns that will be happening. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-mask-or-not-to-mask-that-is-the-question/917910.md?page=9)