# To my Anglo-Canadian Compatriots re: Plains of Abraham **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237 "2009-06-18T23:47:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/161 "2009-06-22T19:53:26Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I am not spewing falsehoods, I am stating what I have observed. Judging by the comments I read on discussion forums in Canada, by letters I read in various English-language Canadian newspapers, when the decision NOT to hold the re-enactment was announced, SOMEBODY out there in English Canada was mightily upset at being deprived of this event. > > There was even an editorial in the National Post urging that Quebec be told “where to get off” that was so virulently anti-Quebec that Alain Dubuc, an editorial writer for La Presse who is very pro-Canada, wrote a letter to the NP to more or less urge them to be a little more moderate. > > Paul Gessell in the Globe and Mail a week ago said that the cancellation was the result of “separatist thugs”. Somebody in English Canada is upset, somewhere, it seems to me. Being pissed off at the (seemingly) pointlessly political cancellation of a historical re-creation for the tourists and kiddies isn’t the same thing as “celebrating” the event being re-created, villanous moustaches a-twirl. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/162 "2009-06-22T20:17:41Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I am not spewing falsehoods, I am stating what I have observed. Judging by the comments I read on discussion forums in Canada, by letters I read in various English-language Canadian newspapers, when the decision NOT to hold the re-enactment was announced, SOMEBODY out there in English Canada was mightily upset at being deprived of this event. So it’s your stated position that finding a few loudmouths out of a population of twenty-five million people is meaningful data? And you actually take the “Letters to the Editor” as a meaningful sampling of a population? Really? Just wanna be clear on that. I’m trying not to laugh, but if you’re serious, I want to make sure of it. > [@](#): > > Paul Gessell in the Globe and Mail a week ago said that the cancellation was the result of “separatist thugs”. Somebody in English Canada is upset, somewhere, it seems to me. Maybe it was, I don’t know. But once again, you’re moving the goalposts. A moment ago you were claiming the battle was cause for celebration in Canada. Being offended at historical revisionism isn’t the same thing. But I’ll ask again: If it’s cause for celebration, _then why are there never any celebrations_? According to you such celebrations would be “A big hit” in many places in Canada. Can you please name some? And once named, can you please explain why they don’t celebrate it now? Here are the facts: People outside Quebec largely do not care. The National Post is not representative of most, or even a significant minority, of people. To most of us the Battle of the Plains of Abraham was something we learned about in Grade 9 history, half-remembered when the exam came around, and immediately forgot about. Most people only vaguely know what it was, what it was about, or why it matters, hardly anyone knows the anniversary of it, and **nobody** sees it as being an occasion to celebrate. If we came up with a 10-question quiz on the basics of the battle I bet nineteen in twenty English Canadians would fail. I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but we don’t really give a shit and the people who write letters to newspapers are mostly weirdos. And to be honest, I’m skeptical that it’s all that important to Quebecois in the grand scheme of things. Are there really THAT many people who are about the outcome of a long-ago battle, fought generations before the birth of any living person, that was fought between two foreign powers and produced a result that was later reversed anyway? Do you think modern Quebecois really give a flying crap about it, or do you think maybe their political interests lie in more recent events and issues? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/163 "2009-06-22T20:21:16Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I am not spewing falsehoods, I am stating what I have observed. Judging by the comments I read on discussion forums in Canada, by letters I read in various English-language Canadian newspapers, when the decision NOT to hold the re-enactment was announced, SOMEBODY out there in English Canada was mightily upset at being deprived of this event. I’d suggest that somebody will always be upset when things happen or not, as the case may be. Somebody was undoubtedly upset that their favourite candidate did not win the last election, somebody was equally upset that their city government did something they didn’t like about a local issue, and somebody was most likely upset that some sort of local celebration was cancelled this year for nothing more politically-charged than budgetary reasons. Upset and bothered is upset and bothered, no matter the cause. Most people, it seems to me, when things don’t work out how they’d like, would simply shrug and deal with the resulting situation. But a few would be upset and bothered enough to take the time to write and send letters to the editor or make posts on message boards, at varying levels of hysteria. To think that these latter folks represent the views of everybody would seem to be rather narrow-minded: a spectrum of views is certainly possible, and these hysteric and offensive views are most likely a narrow wedge. So yes, while I can certainly agree that “SOMEBODY out there in English Canada was mightily upset at being deprived of this event,” I’d disagree that it was everybody in English Canada, or even a majority of residents of English Canada. Most probably didn’t even care. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/164 "2009-06-22T21:03:07Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > First of all, do you have any statistics on this alleged “subset of Quebecers”, because in my experience “la Conquête” is as instantly understood as “the Troubles” in Ireland, “the Depression” in the US and most of the western world, or “the War” would have been in say, 1948. Since you live within a couple of hours’ drive of a few million of your fellow French-speaking Canadians, it astounds me that you would not know this. You’ll be even more surprised when I tell you I did Grade 8-11 and CEGEP in Montreal, worked 3 summers in St-Hyacinthe as a fork lift driver and was never pinned against the wall and forced to endure anything resembling this self indulgent, cat-girl emo display of faux indignation. Now lets get a few things straight, the transfer of New France to Britain was an important part of Canadian history (before you slit your wrist to escape the burning humiliation - that includes Quebec). Important, but seeing how most Canadians don’t remember the conscription crisis of the WW or the Laurier decision to allows militias but not the army to aid the British in South Africa, if fails to loom large in their memories. Anglo-Canadians avoid the term “Conquest” because they don’t know it, not because it clashes with their self-indulgent historical viewpoints on the Battle of the Plains of Abraham and its subsequent effects. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/165 "2009-06-22T21:14:38Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > You’ll be even more surprised when I tell you I did Grade 8-11 and CEGEP in Montreal, worked 3 summers in St-Hyacinthe as a fork lift driver and was never pinned against the wall and forced to endure anything resembling this self indulgent, cat-girl emo display of faux indignation. > > Now lets get a few things straight, the transfer of New France to Britain was an important part of Canadian history (before you slit your wrist to escape the burning humiliation - that includes Quebec). Important, but seeing how most Canadians don’t remember the conscription crisis of the WW or the Laurier decision to allows militias but not the army to aid the British in South Africa, if fails to loom large in their memories. Anglo-Canadians avoid the term “Conquest” because they don’t know it, not because it clashes with their self-indulgent historical viewpoints on the Battle of the Plains of Abraham and its subsequent effects. And yet you **NEVER** heard of “la Conquête”? Two Solitudes indeed! It amazes me that you can have such a wonderful grasp of what people in both English Canada and French Canada are thinking and feeling. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/166 "2009-06-22T21:21:41Z")
No I said I **"was never pinned against the wall and forced to endure anything resembling this self indulgent, cat-girl emo display of faux indignation"** ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/167 "2009-06-22T21:26:48Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > So yes, while I can certainly agree that “SOMEBODY out there in English Canada was mightily upset at being deprived of this event,” I’d disagree that it was everybody in English Canada, or even a majority of residents of English Canada. Most probably didn’t even care. This is an old tactic on SDMB. You can’t prove it is 100% true in every case so therefore your comment is invalid. And when exactly did I say that it was everybody? Please read my OP. And if comments in internet news forums, letters to the editor, radio talk show comments, a cartoon and Editorial in the Globe and Mail, a vitriolic piece in the National Post (look em’ up, they were in March) do not indicate some strain of opinion in English Canada, what are they doing there? So people who write letters to the editor are not representative. Right. Not like Spoons, Uzi, Grey and the rest of the chorus of maybe six or seven people on this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/168 "2009-06-22T21:33:26Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > No I said I **“was never pinned against the wall and forced to endure anything resembling this self indulgent, cat-girl emo display of faux indignation”** Yes, I read your comment Grey, which amounts to name-calling and personal abuse that should not be allowed outside the Pit. There is a saying in French, “L’abus est l’argument de celui qui n’en a pas.” (I can translate that for you if you like.:p) But now are you admitting that French Canadians do indeed refer to it as “La Conquête”? Oh, right, it is just a “subset” that does so. Do you have any cite to back up your contention about this “subset”? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/169 "2009-06-22T22:07:35Z")
Grey and others. If “Conquest” is such an unused word in reference to the events of 1759, try what I just did. A Google search for “Conquest of New France”. While I realize that not all 1,600,000 hits are valid, I note that the expression is used in Wikipedia. A search for “Conquest of Quebec” using ONLY CANADIAN WEB PAGES (and mind you, the search was in English) turned up 183,000 results, including the use of the term by the federal government’s statistical Agency, Statistics Canada at [http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-008-x/2008001/c-g/10574/5214744-eng.htm](http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-008-x/2008001/c-g/10574/5214744-eng.htm) A few quotes from Wikipedia: "The French and Indian War (also known as the Seven Years’ War and in Canada (particularly in Quebec) as the War of the Conquest (French: Guerre de la Conquête) . . . . " “. . . .resulted in the British conquest of Canada.” Oh look, what’s this? An English-language book called "THE CONQUEST OF NEW FRANCE A CHRONICLE OF THE COLONIAL WARS BY GEORGE M. WRONG. Somebody in English seems to be using the term. I could go on and on and I usually do 😛 but the fact is that “Conquest” is used liberally in English and French to refer to this event of 1759. I am not objecting to the use of this word. This is plainly what it was. I am objecting to the contention that the term is hardly used in English Canada and apparently only used by an as-yet undefined and unproven “subset” in French Canada. And I am objecting to the arrogance of those who would tell Québécois to “get over it”. Perhaps Spoons, Grey et al. are not the criterion we should be judging this by. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/170 "2009-06-22T22:24:21Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Important, but seeing how most Canadians don’t remember the conscription crisis of the WW… Did John Keegan get it right when he attributed it to Royalist feelings among French Canadians, who hadn’t gotten over that the Revolution had occurred and were damned if they were going to help them? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/171 "2009-06-22T22:45:16Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > No I said I **“was never pinned against the wall and forced to endure anything resembling this self indulgent, cat-girl emo display of faux indignation”** I never pinned you against anything, or forced you to endure anything, or even asked you to read my postings. All I am saying is that if French-Canadians have a sensitivity about re-enacting the Conquest, you could respect that. Nobody is accusing you personally, Grey, but you remind me of one of those English Canadians who will not get it out of their heads that Quebec’s motto “Je me souviens” must be based on some horrible, vengeful philosophy. You end up wondering what **their** problem is. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/172 "2009-06-22T22:57:23Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Yes, I read your comment Grey, which amounts to name-calling and personal abuse that should not be allowed outside the Pit. There is a saying in French, “L’abus est l’argument de celui qui n’en a pas.” (I can translate that for you if you like.:p) Translate whatever you wish and report the post as you deem fit. > [@](#): > > But now are you admitting that French Canadians do indeed refer to it as “La Conquête”? Oh, right, it is just a “subset” that does so. Do you have any cite to back up your contention about this “subset”? Your post is my cite? > [@Valteron](#): > > I live in Gatineau, just across the river from Ottawa. And you are not aware that any French-Canadian would know immediately what is meant by la Conquête, probably the central point of their history Will that suffice or do I need to define subset as well? Do you basically go looking for stupid things to rail against or is this special? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/173 "2009-06-22T23:05:13Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Do you basically go looking for stupid things to rail against or is this special? The French proverb means “Abuse is the argument of the guy who has no argument.” You know, like the guy who uses terms like “stupid” and “moron” and “cat-girl”. That sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/174 "2009-06-22T23:47:33Z")
Valteron, I’m interested in getting an answer to my questions. You claimed many places in Canada would be really big on celebrating “the Conquest,” as you call it. Could you please tell us 1. What those places are, and 2. Why, if this subject is a popular subject of celebration, we never, ever see any celebrations every year on the anniversary of the battle? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/175 "2009-06-23T01:53:25Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > And when exactly did I say that it was everybody? Please read my OP. And if comments in internet news forums, letters to the editor, radio talk show comments, a cartoon and Editorial in the Globe and Mail, a vitriolic piece in the National Post (look em’ up, they were in March) do not indicate some strain of opinion in English Canada, what are they doing there? How about you look them up, and provide us with some cites? I don’t doubt that they were there–certainly, they may have prompted [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=507154) from last February/March when the topic was newsworthy–but can you provide your \*Globe and Mail \*and \*National Post \*cites from then? And perhaps more recent media cites to show how resentment in English Canada continues to simmer? I can save you some trouble: I looked in [my local paper](http://www.lethbridgeherald.com/) today for any sign of this. The front page had a photo of a cute kid, a story on drought fears, something on Conrad Black, and a local sports story. The letters to the editor concerned the First Nations, local seniors, taser use, and traffic safety for children. Tonight’s TV news (CTV, if you’re interested) spoke of police response to break-ins in Calgary, a stakeout at a local mall, Olympics training, and a few car accidents on local highways. This is all pretty standard stuff–believe it or not, here in the province you love to hate, folks are more concerned with local matters than with a cancelled event 2500 miles away. I think it’s important to note that, as I hoped that my statement above inferred, most of the ROC really doesn’t care. As I’ve said before on the SDMB, we in the ROC really don’t wake up every morning wondering in what new and interesting way we can piss Quebec off today. No, I imagine we’re pretty much like Quebecers: we go to work, we deal with the boss and customers, we go home. We deal with bills, mortgages, the kids, the in-laws, and so on. Only a few of us–like, I imagine, only a few Quebecers–care enough to post indignant messages on the Internet or write indignant letters to the editor. The issue may be very important to those who choose to do so–and it is obviously very important to you, to post it on an Internet message board three months after it was news–but for most of us, it’s background noise, assuming we hear it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/176 "2009-06-23T02:14:05Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > The French proverb means “Abuse is the argument of the guy who has no argument.” You know, like the guy who uses terms like “stupid” and “moron” and “cat-girl”. That sort of thing. OH! Oh! I’m sorry! This is mockery! No, you want room 12A, next door. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/177 "2009-06-23T02:31:47Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > OH! Oh! I’m sorry! This is mockery! No, you want room 12A, next door. When I am reduced to trading barbs with Grey and explaining to Rick Jay what sarcasm is, I think this thread has run its course. You are free to think what you want, but you are not free to tell me what to feel. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237/178 "2009-06-23T02:47:12Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I think this thread has run its course. 176 posts late. Closed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-anglo-canadian-compatriots-re-plains-of-abraham/500237.md?page=8)