# To my fellow lefties **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 23, 2007, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267 "2007-05-23T19:20:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/61 "2007-05-24T01:48:56Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I note that the thread in question has been locked, although one of the moderators who had been embarassed made sure to get in the last word. Funny, that. [/QUOTE] Oh, for Pete’s sake, **Shodan**. Are you stupid, after all? There was a one minute gap. There are at least two reasonable explanations for that: 1. **Czarcasm** was composing while **MEBuckner** post was posted. As mods can post to closed threads, nothing would stop his post from going through. This is probably what happened. 2. There is usually some gap between the posting of a thread closure, and the thread being closed. They are separate actions. I have seen members posts sneak in between the announcement and the closure; it’s just timing. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/62 "2007-05-24T02:00:52Z")
> [@](#): > > As mods can post to closed threads, nothing would stop his post from going through. This is probably what happened. That is probably what happened, thus allowing a moderator the last word. Just like I said. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/63 "2007-05-24T02:01:15Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Oh, for Pete’s sake, **Shodan**. Are you stupid, after all? There was a one minute gap. There are at least two reasonable explanations for that: 1. **Czarcasm** was composing while **MEBuckner** post was posted. As mods can post to closed threads, nothing would stop his post from going through. This is probably what happened. 2. There is usually some gap between the posting of a thread closure, and the thread being closed. They are separate actions. I have seen members posts sneak in between the announcement and the closure; it’s just timing. Sheesh. [/QUOTE] I got my post in after **MEBuckner** posted that the thread was to be closed, but before he closed it. Get in the last word? What the hell are you talking about, **Shodan**? My last post asked questions that were directly tied to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/64 "2007-05-24T02:02:44Z")
[This](http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/98-611.pdf) is a report on Presidential Directives published by the Congressional Research Service. It’s about 19 pages long and gives you a good general overview on what exactly National Security Directives are, how Presidents have used them in the past, and how they are created. The linked .pdf contains general info on a variety of Presidential Directives/Proclamations/et cetera, here’s some of the pertinent information on security directives: > [@](#): > > National Security Instruments > > Shortly after the creation of the National Security Council (NSC) in 1947, supporting staff began producing four types of policy papers: basic comprehensive policy statements on a broad variety of national security problems, together with pertinent political, economic, and military implementation strategies; situation profiles of large geographic areas or specific countries; assessments of mobilization, arms control, atomic energy, and other functional matters; and organizational statements on NSC, foreign intelligence, and internal security structure and activities. > > The initial products in the series reportedly were of the geographical type; the first comprehensive policy statement was completed and given NSC approval in November 1948. The early NSC policy papers were initiated by the council’s members, executive secretary, and supporting staff. Some ideas were also drawn from studies and reports prepared by the State-Army-Navy-Air Force Coordinating Committee, which was subsequently dissolved in 1949. The Department of State “was the most important single source of project requests, with the Defense Department a close second.” Moreover, the early council papers were drafted primarily by the policy planning staff of the Department of State. Some of these papers came before the NSC for information or served solely as a basis for discussion. However, others, containing policy recommendations, eventually reached the President. His signature indicated approval of the proposed policy. Also, according to the first NSC executive secretary, if implementing legislation was required for the new policy, it was prepared by the appropriate department(s) and cleared in the usual way through the Bureau of the Budget before submission to Congress. Nonetheless, a new type of presidential directive was in the making. By the time President Dwight D. Eisenhower took office, approximately 100 NSC papers mandated operative policy. With each succeeding President, national security instruments of varying denominations and character evolved from the NSC policy papers. In general, they were not required to be published in the Federal Register, were usually security classified at the highest level of protection, and were available to the public after a great many years had elapsed, usually at the official library of the President who had approved them. Many of the more recent ones remain officially secret. The national security instruments of the past several administrations are briefly profiled. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/65 "2007-05-24T02:03:04Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] That is probably what happened, thus allowing a moderator the last word. Just like I said. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] This is _not_ what happened, asshole. If you have any evidence that I would ever do such a thing just to get in a “last word”, bring it on. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/66 "2007-05-24T02:03:11Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] That is probably what happened, thus allowing a moderator the last word. Just like I said. [/QUOTE] Then what, precisely, were you implying by, “Funny, that.” Was it a simple comment? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/67 "2007-05-24T02:06:09Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] That is probably what happened, thus allowing a moderator the last word. Just like I said. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] It allowed a _poster_ the last word. **Czarcasm** ’s post was clearly in his capacity as a poster, not a moderator. Like **Frank** said it could have happened with any poster, even those without moderator status, I believe in the past one of my posts got in after the mod’s post saying “thread closed” but before the thread itself shut down. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/68 "2007-05-24T02:09:48Z")
Also, just because a policy paper, signed by the President and produced in conjunction with the National Security Council is not published in the Federal Register doesn’t mean that only biased, administration-types get to see it. Several members of Congress have significant security clearances and would have access to these directives (often this is based on committee status, not all of Congress would have access nor would all of those who do be vigilant enough to read every classified paper they have access to, in fact most probably wouldn’t read even a fraction of them.) The NSC also has the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs as a member. So to believe that this directive contains a secret proviso establishing a dictatorship in the United States is to believe that: -Several members of congress read that and didn’t make a fuss about it -ALL of the NSC staff who had access to the document, which would range from political appointees to long-term professionals read such a proviso and didn’t make it public (even if you believe ALL of them are corrupt Bush toadies, can you really believe ALL of them want Bush as their dictator?) -The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, a man who took an _oath_ to uphold the Constitution of the United States didn’t say anything publicly about this. His oath would supersede his duty not to disseminate classified information ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/69 "2007-05-24T02:18:47Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] 1. **Czarcasm** was composing while **MEBuckner** post was posted. As mods can post to closed threads, nothing would stop his post from going through. This is probably what happened. [/QUOTE] Just to make this point more clear: if a member is composing a post when a thread is closed (in the database, not when a closing post is made), when they submit the post, they will get the “you are not authorized” message. If a mod attempts this, the post will go through. There is nothing nefarious or intentional about it. Unless your brain cell hasn’t divided yet. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/70 "2007-05-24T02:29:57Z")
Does implying that an embarrassed mod got in the last word by underhanded means count as knee jerk or not rationally based? Does using the phrase “Funny that” to imply underhandedness, then pretending (after one is called on one’s shit) that one was simply stating the facts without implying anything more count as after the fact rationalisation? [I have no particular reason for asking, of course…](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8605037&postcount=5) ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/71 "2007-05-24T02:34:28Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] But no. Instead you keep going, distorting what the directive says, acting like it’s something other than it is. You change the subject to something different, and when called on that and asked for cites, you dodge and change again. And, seriously, look like idiots. I’m embarrassed by this, and I’m just a guy on the sidelines. [/QUOTE] I didn’t post in that thread and didn’t even read it. However it is necessary to remember that it’s a little difficult to maintain equanimity when you are called unAmerican traitors, and worse, for opposing foolish national policies. Opponents of GW and his nonsense have been reviled over and over in worse terms than anyone has used against him. I call him a shallow, sophomoric ninny but even I don’t think he is traiterous and running the country into the ground intentionally. I just fault him for his delusion that he is competent to be president of the US. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/72 "2007-05-24T02:50:36Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] [Quote=Shodan] If that was a subtle attempt at shaming me into not slapping down the knee-jerkers, it isn’t going to work. [/quote] It wasn’t. It was a simple comment - slap away to your heart’s content. It’s too bad, though, that you don’t have the ability to read a simple comment with filling it full of subtext. [/QUOTE] Hey! There is no reason to interfere with his self-flagellation. If he wants to slap down knee-jerk posting, we should support those efforts. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/73 "2007-05-24T03:03:57Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I note that the thread in question has been locked, although one of the moderators who had been embarassed made sure to get in the last word. Funny, that. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] I certainly didn’t mean to imply there was actually anything underhanded going on with my last post, which was intended to be light-hearted. **Czarcasm** was undoubtedly composing his post at the same time I was composing my “thread is closed” announcement is all. Mods can post in closed threads, and there is no “This thread is closed; are you sure you want to post here?” message; a post to a closed thread by someone who’s a Mod just goes right on through. ---
**Author:** ![Klaatu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Klaatu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klaatu)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/74 "2007-05-24T04:47:32Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Look, fact is, the first Dictator of the United States will not be a desperately unpopular second-rate schlub who’s out of his depth and grasping at straws to try to stay relevant. [/QUOTE] snipped for brevity. That whole post should be a sticky. Outstanding post! People, GeeDubyaShrub is NOT going to turn the US into a fascist dictatorship police state Gitmo from sea to shining sea. Fucking relax! He’s a lame duck moron who will be outta here pretty soon. You lefties need to concentrate on getting one of your people in there. Fucking Og on a crutch, get your shit straight for the election instead of wigging out over Art Bell-esque weirdism about bullshit. If you people can’t win the white house this fucking time, you deserve what you get. Get a grip, get your shit together, and throw the bastards out. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/75 "2007-05-24T06:09:25Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Do _you_ trust them? [/QUOTE] You’re doing it again. That’s not what this is about. Besides, after (I assume) reading my original post, why do you even need to ask? What are you trying to achieve? [QUOTE=LilyoftheValley] A thread on Fredrik Reinfeldt and company wouldn’t go entirely unattended…just sayin’. [/QUOTE] Heh. There’d be like three of us there, but maybe. **Lemur866** : between that post and the post in the “land of the free” thread, you just became one of my favourite Dopers. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/76 "2007-05-24T06:25:21Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] Please allow me to apologize for a thing or two, and to explain some difficulty I’m having. [/QUOTE] Thanks for this post. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/77 "2007-05-24T08:21:15Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] You’re doing it again. … [/QUOTE] OK, last try. Did you know, when it was passed, that the military authorization bill empowered GW to undertake extra-legal surveillance on his own authority? Neither did I, but they will look you right in the eye and say, “Well, of course it does, not in so many words, but he’s a wartime president, so it necessarily follows that he gets all those special wartime president powers…” If you don’t believe so, then you must think that this guy is willing to warp the wording and intent to serve his own ends. In that case, what difference does it make that there is no direct threat in the proposal? Did you expect him to give you “fair warning”? How many times have you said to yourself: “He’s not that crazy and/or evil!” How many times have you been wrong? He’s fooled me a couple three times like that, starting to feel snakebit. Now that point seems fairly simple to me, but I’m not interested in annoying you, if you don’t buy it, you don’t. 'Nuff sed. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/78 "2007-05-24T09:06:02Z")
I was hoping to avoid this, since all the information you’re after is obvious from my original post, but OK, I’ll answer. [QUOTE=elucidator] OK, last try. Did you know, when it was passed, that the military authorization bill empowered GW to undertake extra-legal surveillance on his own authority? [/quote] No. > [@](#): > > If you don’t believe so, then you must think that this guy is willing to warp the wording and intent to serve his own ends. I do. > [@](#): > > In that case, what difference does it make that there is no direct threat in the proposal? In that case, what does the proposal matter at all? > [@](#): > > How many times have you said to yourself: “He’s not that crazy and/or evil!” Zero, as far as I can remember. Now, the relevance of all this is what? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/79 "2007-05-24T11:40:56Z")
Wow, do some people just not get how it works! One wonders how many times they need to be punched in the nose before they become a little bit guarded. Why develop a document if you’re just going to usurp power? Don’t you remember the Authorization to Use Military Force? You know, the one that says that we should work with the U.N. and exhaust diplomatic options before invading Iraq? Did we fucking do that? No, obviously not. But dammit if everyone, including tsk tsking “liberals” doesn’t point to the document as an excuse for Bush’s actions. At worst, we say, well they shouldn’t have gone along with it because they _knew_ in reality what it meant, and that Bush would do what he wanted anyway. That’s why you get the paper - paper provides surprisingly great cover. Especially when you have a nice conglomeration of willing to do anything for party before country cunts on the one side and finger wagging “let’s not be so mean and uncordial” ninnies on the other side. So now after all of the multitude of examples of the abuse of power, the misrepresentation of the meaning of what was agreed to, the dissemination of lies, (such as “Carter did it too” - see, e.g. the ever useless **Sho-bot** in this very thread), if we look with a jaundiced eye at something like this that seems to have major nooks and crannies, we are either hysterical bullshitters or naive for worrying about what is actually written on the paper. My good god, at least **Sho-bot** has the excuse of being a pathetic mindless dickless conservadrone. What the fuck is your excuse, **Priceguy**? What about you, **Liberal**? Weren’t you just calling the Democrats pussies for not seeking impeachment? Now you are “tinking” glasses with someone who is critical of a dubious regard for the proposal in question? ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267/80 "2007-05-24T11:43:45Z")
[QUOTE=Jeff] Pfft, flagrant false advertising. Lefties = left-handed people [/QUOTE] I qualify for both meanings/ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-my-fellow-lefties/405267.md?page=5)