To my friend on FaceBook who has been spewing anti-healthcare-reform messages for the past 6 months

[tagos]

@Athena

I’ve often thought about starting a thread here to see if anyone in countries that have universal health care ever see advertisements for spaghetti dinner fundraisers in their grocery stores, but I’m afraid the answer would be too depressing. I fucking hate that I live in a country where we think it’s OK that sick people have to organize charitable events in order to pay their bills.

In the UK we occasionally get high profile cases where the NHS, quite reasonably, won’t pay large sums for a procedure abroad that stands little chance of saving a life or is experimental.

Money doesn’t grow on trees and the money that offer a 1 in 500 chance of a good outcome is better spent elsewhere.

Of course as these cases are few and far between, there is a nation to rally round. No spaghetti dinners involved.

And yes - as a nation we are cool with an independent body like NICE making that decision than an ‘our-profit-is-your-suffering’ insurance company.

[Sinaijon]

@you_with_the_face

I’m curious. What are you trying to accomplish with this chess move? It doesn’t look to be a winning strategy, just sayin.

You seem to believe that strangers have an obligation to provide money for health care for others. I’m just curious how much of this obligation applies to yourself.

[Gyrate]

@tagos

In the UK we occasionally get high profile cases where the NHS, quite reasonably, won’t pay large sums for a procedure abroad that stands little chance of saving a life or is experimental.

Money doesn’t grow on trees and the money that offer a 1 in 500 chance of a good outcome is better spent elsewhere.

Of course as these cases are few and far between, there is a nation to rally round. No spaghetti dinners involved.

A very recent case in point. Simon Cowell (very rightly*) is getting most of the press for putting in £100,000 of his own money, but:

After her appeal was broadcast last week, people from all over the country pledged their support and donated cash.

But yesterday morning she was still £100,000 short of the necessary target – until Cowell, 50, stepped in.

Bearing in mind that they needed £500,000…well, you do the math. Because these cases are rare, it makes it easier to get people to pitch in when the system won’t or can’t cover the costs.
*I generally loathe Cowell (and indeed the Daily Mail) but kudos to him for this good deed.

[tagos]

@Sinaijon

You seem to believe that strangers have an obligation to provide money for health care for others. I’m just curious how much of this obligation applies to yourself.

Health is no different to roads, education, police, fire and defence and i’m as sure as shit you ain’t paying for all those yourself.

[Athena]

@Sinaijon

I’m well aware of that article. It is quite good, but maybe you missed the bits about the premiums and out-of-pocket expenses that those 5 countries have. For example, Germans pay on average almost $10,000 a year for their healthcare. You don’t think that constitutes a financial hardship? You could have your ER trip every year for that much!

Or why would $10,000 a year in premiums not be a hardship, but paying $5000K out of pocket for a single incident is?

I’m just curious - what do you think people in the US are paying for health care? Every study I read says it’s more than $10K/year.

[BigT]

I never realized how liberal I was until I came to this board. I live in a fundamentalist Christian community. And yet, we’re all smart enough to know that you get more money forcing people to pay for the poor than you do just asking and hoping.

Yet, most of them voted Republican until this last election. Say what you want about Obama not living up to his promises. But he got fundies to vote for what they actually believe, instead of just for talking points.

[Mycroft_Holmes]

@Sinaijon

For example, Germans pay on average almost $10,000 a year for their healthcare. You don’t think that constitutes a financial hardship? You could have your ER trip every year for that much!

Can you show me where it says that Germans pay $10,000 a year (on average), because I can’t find it? I pay the absolute maximum allowed (because my salary is above a certain amount), which is 15.8% of 3675€ (= 580.65€) a month. This is before taxes, and my employer pays nearly half. That means that I am only paying about 200€ a month out of my salary after taxes. This is to insure me, my wife and my two children.

The only thing my wife and I have to pay is 10€ every three months if we need to go to a doctor or dentist, and a couple of Euros every time we have to get a prescription filled. The kids pay absolutely nothing as long as they are under 18. If they are over 18 they also don’t pay, as long as they are still in school (which includes college).

Since the system recently changed so that all insurers cost the same amount, and I used to be with one of the cheaper insurers, they gave me a check for 100€ to compensate the price hike. If I lose my job, my (and my family’s) health insurance is payed as part of my unemployment insurance benefit. If I no longer have a right to unemployment benefits, the social insurance benefits pay for my health insurance. In other words, there is no way I can end up uninsured, and at the moment I only pay about 2400€ a year to insure my whole family.

I have no idea where they got the 10.000€ a year number from.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

I’m guessing it’s an amalgamation of your direct cost and the per-capita government subsidy. Note that it’s $10,000, so closer to 7,000 EUR than 10k. I bet it includes stuff that shouldn’t be factored into “the cost of healthcare” like spending on over-the-counter drugs, too, though.

[tagos]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=110997469

Comparison site

United States

Population: 302 million

Life expectancy at birth: 78.1

Health spending as part of GDP: 15.3%

System type: Employer-employee based (54%) and government funding (46%). Government covers all older adults and the disabled (Medicare), the poor (Medicaid), veterans, government employees and Native Americans.

Coverage: 82% of people under 65; 100% of people 65 or over.

Average annual per-person spending:
Total: $6,402.
Breakdown: $2,884 by government; $2,676 for private insurance, with 52% paid by employers, 48% paid by employees; $842 by consumer out-of-pocket*

Great Britain

Population: 61 million

Life expectancy at birth: 79

Health spending as part of GDP: 8.3%

System type: Tax-funded, government-run.

Coverage: Universal coverage. All citizens and legal residents.

**Average annual per-person spending:
Total: $2,723.

Breakdown: $2,371 by government; $352 on supplemental private insurance, OTC drugs, direct payments to doctors.
**
Germany

Population: 82.3 million

Life expectancy at birth: 79

Health spending as part of GDP: 10.7%

System type: Universal coverage. Mostly employer-employee based (88%).

Coverage: 99.8 % – all citizens and legal residents

**Average annual per-person spending:

Total: $3,673

Breakdown: $2,518 on mandatory employment-based coverage, nonprofit insurance; $259 on for-profit insurance; $349 by government; and $547 consumer out-of-pocket*.**

Financing: Workers split premiums with employers, with each paying about 8% of workers’ gross income to nonprofit “sickness funds.” Those earning over $75,000 may purchase insurance from for-profit insurers.

[Mycroft_Holmes]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Note that it’s $10,000, so closer to 7,000 EUR than 10k.

You’re right. It probably is 12 times the cost per month (about 600€ which includes the government subsidy) plus the small co-payments for doctor’s visists and prescriptions. I also forgot that 7000 Euros actually is $10,000.

I am still used to the Euro being worth less than a dollar (a long time ago) since that was the last time I had to buy dollars. But, as you can see from my post my actual, out of pocket cost is probably less than $5000 a year.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

You forgot to explain the asterisk, tagos.

Mycroft: Yes, now I’m just waiting for Sinaijon to come back and explain where the $10k figure comes from.

[Sinaijon]

@Mycroft_Holmes

But, as you can see from my post my actual, out of pocket cost is probably less than $5000 a year.

Out of pocket, yes, but employer’s share of your premiums is reflected in a lower monthly salary for you, same as it is here in the US.

“Yeah, I got a new job. The pay’s not so good, but I get great benefits…”

[Sinaijon]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Mycroft: Yes, now I’m just waiting for Sinaijon to come back and explain where the $10k figure comes from.

It came from the Frontline article on healthcare here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/countries/

$750 * 12 = almost $10k.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Or exactly $9k, which might have been a better number to use.

[Sinaijon]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Or exactly $9k, which might have been a better number to use.

:rolleyes: Yes, we must use exact numbers when talking about sums of approximate averages. :rolleyes:

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Right, because “nine thousand” isn’t a round number or anything. :rolleyes: right back atcha.

[Sateryn76]

@Drain_Bead

Don’t keep your mouth shut. The only way ignorance can be fought is if people are actually exposed to opposing viewpoints.

I work for the government, another industry in which other people are jealous of our benefits package. Another government attorney I know recently had a recurrence of her cancer (not sure the exact type but it’s rare and abdominally based–she went in for liposuction after losing nearly 50 lbs but being unable to get rid of her “belly fat” and they found out her “belly fat” was a 13-lb tumor). Even though we have a cutting-edge cancer center in town, they can’t handle it, so she has to fly to…Houston, I believe, for treatment. Her insurance does cover this treatment, amazingly (most others would consider it out of network, I think) but what it does not cover is the transportation and lodging when she’s out of town at the only place that has the remotest chance of keeping her above ground. Poor woman.

You know, it’s funny, I bet the woman I mentioned above is putting a whole lot of hotel room stays and flights on her credit card. Would you realize that this was for cancer treatment instead of a bunch of vacations? Probably not.

This is my problem about the “80% of all bankruptcies are filed due to medical debt” statistic. No one knows if that is accurate.

For someone like me, I literally read exactly what the bills are for. As you stated, the credit debt could be from flying to Houston for treatment (MD Anderson, where my uncle was treated, is known as one of the best cancer facilities in the world). But it could have been for new bedsheets and cash advances for playing the slots. Nowhere does it indicate what the bills are for. But, the Value City Furniture card at $5,000 is clearly not for medical debt, and “Dr. Williams” could be for a cosmetic nose job, or a herbalist bill.

I was at the region-wide conference for the Trustee system on Monday and Tuesday. One of the speakers was from the Executive Office of the United States Trustee, which Congress has designated the “keeper of the statistics”. He went over number of filings, changes over time, etc., etc. He was asked directly if they keep any statistics about the percentage of filings due to medical debt.

His answer was that they do not track any of those kinds of statistics. At all.

So, in general, any number you read or hear about re: the role of medical bills in bankruptcy filings are really just conjecture, or extrapolated based on polling, or some other statistically suspect basis.

[Sleeps_With_Butterflies]

@Drain_Bead

I work for the government, another industry in which other people are jealous of our benefits package. Another government attorney I know recently had a recurrence of her cancer (not sure the exact type but it’s rare and abdominally based–she went in for liposuction after losing nearly 50 lbs but being unable to get rid of her “belly fat” and they found out her “belly fat” was a 13-lb tumor). Even though we have a cutting-edge cancer center in town, they can’t handle it, so she has to fly to…Houston, I believe, for treatment. Her insurance does cover this treatment, amazingly (most others would consider it out of network, I think) but what it does not cover is the transportation and lodging when she’s out of town at the only place that has the remotest chance of keeping her above ground. Poor woman.

Well, Anderson Cancer Center in Houston is the top rated cancer hospital in the US. Her situation must be very dire if that is the only place that can help her. As much as I wish her well and hope she can recover and I do support some kind of public healthcare option, I don’t really think travel and lodging is something that should be part of that. I guess I’d have to think on that a bit and see some requirements, but it seems to me a little much to ask for. I think the doctor would have to go a long way to prove that some other place would really be the only place a positive outcome could be achieved and not just “This is the best place for treatment of this kind.”

[Sateryn76]

@Sleeps_With_Butterflies

Well, Anderson Cancer Center in Houston is the top rated cancer hospital in the US. Her situation must be very dire if that is the only place that can help her. As much as I wish her well and hope she can recover and I do support some kind of public healthcare option, I don’t really think travel and lodging is something that should be part of that. I guess I’d have to think on that a bit and see some requirements, but it seems to me a little much to ask for. I think the doctor would have to go a long way to prove that some other place would really be the only place a positive outcome could be achieved and not just “This is the best place for treatment of this kind.”

I’m with you on this, and it’s one of the “slippery slope” type things I worry about with UHC. I can easily see people demanding that these kinds of costs be covered as well.

[you_with_the_face]

@Sinaijon

You seem to believe that strangers have an obligation to provide money for health care for others. I’m just curious how much of this obligation applies to yourself.

You’re the one who thinks begging for handouts from your neighbors and church members is substantially different and better than seeking the same kind of relief from strangers. I happen to think they are no different from each other, as money from either source spends just the same, and is therefore just as capable of saving a loved one’s life. Can you explain why you disapprove of getting money from strangers?

If your kid needed money for a transplant and the hospital told you that half the costs could be waived since you qualified for a tax-funded assistance program, would you turn that assistance down in favor of selling countless numbers of donuts and spaghetti dinners at your church and school?

If you say yes, you would turn that money down, not only are you Dumbass Stupid, but I’d have to question how much you really love your kid.

If you say no, like most intelligent people would, then you’re in perfect agreement with me. Having a system in which people have to hustle in the streets to receive medical care is a bloody shame when it doesn’t have to be that way.