# To profile or not to profile? A retailer's dilemma. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2008, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648 "2008-11-27T02:37:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/21 "2008-11-27T19:19:10Z")
If you’ve identified a certain visible type of people, which happens to be black and presumably young, and find that scrutinizing them as an efficient use of your security resources, you’d simply be an idiot for not doing so. On the moral question, I’d say any overt action should only be a result of evident wrongdoing. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/22 "2008-11-27T19:54:41Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > CVS attracted bad publicity for [security-tagging items bought predominantly by blacks](http://www.snopes.com/racial/business/cvs.asp), but not similar items bought by whites. They stated that they were simply tagging the items that were stolen the most. While they were criticized, I couldn’t find any evidence of lawsuits against them. If they could show that these _were_ the most stolen items, I have no problem with this whatever and don’t understand why it’s considered racist. I would also guess that most of what’s shoplifted depends largely on where your store is- if it’s in a black neighborhood it’s going to be items bought by blacks and if it’s in an elderly white neighborhood it’s going to be Jim Nabors cassettes and magnetic arthritis bracelets. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/23 "2008-11-27T20:30:29Z")
I used to manage a liquor store and had the same problem. Around 4% of the customers were black and so where most of the thieves we caught. The way we handled it was to ask new and suspicious customers if they needed any help. That way they would know we were aware of them. So if I felt a customer was too suspicious I would signal someone else to go and ask him for help. As for profiling, my boss had little qualms about it. Anyone that had expensive clothes but did not dress like they were going to a cocktail party was suspicious. This included a number of black people, but all we did was ask them if they needed help. No one was grilled while they walked around the store. The store was also set up so you could view the entire area from one spot in the store. Sometimes items get stolen from blind spots. Areas that retailers or whoever is on the floor can’t see. Are the videos being taken from one area? Any chance you could keep all the videos behind the counter and hang tickets next to the titles? Try not to give anyone a chance to steal. If you are looking to catch them after they take stuff it will be too late. Change the store set up, approach more customers, or maybe get fake cameras. Anything that will make people think its not worth the risk. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/24 "2008-11-27T20:36:18Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Kinda like GM. > > I wonder if part of the problem is that white people aren’t as aware of the social clues of black people. I’m white and I can tell when a white person is “out of place” or suspicious in some manner, but I’m not sure if I’d be able to make as good a judgement on someone from a different sub-culture. They make online cars these days? Oh, sorry - I see what you mean. I suppose you may have something, though. Not sure, because the last time I worked in a direct customer-facing role, it was a bar in Glasgow. We’d have been surprised if a black person came in, but only because there were hardly any living there in those days. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/25 "2008-11-27T20:49:21Z")
My question is why do you care if you are being “racist” or not? I mean much of your OP indicates subtle racial, socioeconomic or classist biases anyhow. Are you worried you won’t get some sort of Liberal PC Club memborship card or something? My advice is just take race into acount as one of many variables you use to identify situations where a shoplifting might occur. > [@lissener](#): > > Seattle’s a relatively well integrated city; its “ghetto” doesn’t nearly approach the conditions of Chicago’s or New York’s. Where are New York City’s “ghettos” again? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/26 "2008-11-27T21:29:53Z")
A video store near me just keeps the empty boxes on the shelfs. Each box represents a video they have. You bring the box to the counter and they give you the disc. No problem. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/27 "2008-11-27T22:42:13Z")
It may happen that black people at your store really are stealing more, without race being a factor. What good it would do you to profile is the question worth asking, not whether you’re a racist. It seems you have a healthy-enough introspective personality to avoid problems here. “If someone stole an item, then it was a black person.” This may be generally, though not specifically, valid for some reason at your store. Racism is then the fallacy of affirming the consequent, “There’s a black person, he’s going to steal.” And that’s pretty much what profiling is about. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/28 "2008-11-27T23:59:39Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > …every time we’ve had to ask someone to leave because they’re a crackhead or shoplifting or drunk or whatever, so far, they’ve all been black. > > …I find myself–we all find ourselves, my coworkers too–paying more attention to, and giving less benefit of the doubt to, black people who come in the store and A) are not recognized as customers; B) have a noticeable layer of “street”–you know, park-bench-dirt, or that lovely urine+alcohol smell; C) are noticeably, um, impaired; or D) exhibiting specific shoplifting behavior (will explain if necessary). > > …To the point where one of my coworkers has taken it upon himself to follow around the store any black person who’s not a recognized regular customer. Me, I’ve suggested that if anyone seems “suspicious,” we should ask if they’re a customer, and ask them to leave if they don’t have an account with us. > > The problem I’m bringing to this thread for discussion, though, is that this whole episode has made me feel like a racist. The answer lies within your original post. First, you say that you ask people to leave because they are crackheads, shoplifters, or drunks. Yes, they are all black people, but you are asking them to leave for legitmate reasons which have nothing to do with race. If your store were near a poor white area, you would ask a white, drunk, shoplifting crackhead to leave as well, right? Second, you say you pay closer attention to black people who are A, B, C, and D. Why not just drop ‘black’ from the list? Third, is it the case that your coworker only follows around suspicious black people (leaving suspicious white people alone), or is it that you never have suspicious white people in the store? If it’s the former, that isracist. Instead he could just follow all suspicious people. If the latter, it may not be racist, but how can you know for sure? Asking suspicious people to leave immediately ought to cut down on shoplifting, but the danger of alienating new customers will put your already ailing business in even worse shape. Better to keep the discs behind the counter. Finally, and purely anecdotally, wondering if you are a racist, like wondering if you are an alcoholic, probably means you are not, if you are being completely honest with yourself. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/29 "2008-11-28T04:57:36Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > A video store near me just keeps the empty boxes on the shelfs. Each box represents a video they have. You bring the box to the counter and they give you the disc. No problem. We did it that way 20 years ago with VHS tapes. Again, no problems with theft at all. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/30 "2008-11-28T14:07:55Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > “If someone stole an item, then it was a black person.” This may be generally, though not specifically, valid for some reason at your store. Racism is then the fallacy of affirming the consequent, “There’s a black person, he’s going to steal.” And that’s pretty much what profiling is about. Exremely well put. Thanks, Eris. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/31 "2008-11-28T23:36:33Z")
Thanks everyone, for a very insightful and helpful discussion. I thought about this quite a bit over the last 24 hours or so, and reached some of the same conclusions. 1. The actual red flags are not racial; they just happen, more frequently in this neighborhood (or whatever) to be associated with black people. But again, race has never actually been a red flag in and of itself. 2. I think what happened was I’d reached a last straw or something when, on the same day, I discovered _Car Wash_ and two copies of \*Meet Dave \*missing. I was angry, and I wanted to give myself permission to react emotionally; i.e., with a race factor: I needed someone to be mad at. And I think I posted here to get that permission from you guys too. So anyway, after more reflection (and this thread), I think I’ve put my emotional reaction in perspective. That is, I’ve come to understand that the racial aspect of my reaction was emotional and irrational. I don’t think of myself as racist, so this reaction bothered me, and I came here to have it justified. Thanks for the opportunity to think this through. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/32 "2008-11-29T05:33:02Z")
It would take a lot of work to do, but as mentioned before you can protect your rentals from theft by keeping only the boxes on the shelves. You’ll save the hours it takes setting this up by not having to walk through the entire store to restock them when they’re returned. In the end, you’ll probably save labor. Gamestop uses this method to deter theft, and they only have to deal with employee theft on the games they have behind the counter. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/33 "2008-11-29T05:49:23Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > It would take a lot of work to do, but as mentioned before you can protect your rentals from theft by keeping only the boxes on the shelves. You’ll save the hours it takes setting this up by not having to walk through the entire store to restock them when they’re returned. In the end, you’ll probably save labor. Gamestop uses this method to deter theft, and they only have to deal with employee theft on the games they have behind the counter. We have like 100,000 titles. It would be impossible to change this particular horse in midstream. Not to mention prohibitively expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/34 "2008-11-29T06:01:55Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > We have like 100,000 titles. It would be impossible to change this particular horse in midstream. Not to mention prohibitively expensive. What’s the expense? Just the labor hours? Maybe you could do this with the most valuable or frequently-stolen titles? ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/35 "2008-11-29T18:20:36Z")
nothing of what i just read made much sense. 1 - you work at an independent video retail shop (not hollywood video, blockbuster, etc) in downtown Seattle that stocks 100,000 videos but never gave the empty-box idea a try even when that is the prevailing MO of the entire rental industry? 2 - you’re able to stock 100,000 videos but unable to install security on those videos because of prohibitive costs? Even the cost of switching over to the empty-box idea is prohibitive because the cost of theft is significantly less than the man hours needed to convert? How many movies are being stolen? 3-5 a week? I feel like that’s the cost you’ve decided as acceptable since it’s not worth switching over to no-box. 3 - are you’re mad at yourself for assuming homeless people steal, or recognizing that most homeless people in your store are black? assuming homeless people steal is still profiling, but operating under more accurate parameters. 4 - racism makes no exceptions. if you’re racist, you follow around black people - piss drenched or not. Do you not follow white hobos? I feel like that would be the first justification you gave yourself when the doubts of race-neutrality arose. 5 - Winnona Ryder. 6 - you shouldn’t be stocking meet dave anyway. it was probably the quality fairy doing you a favor. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/36 "2008-11-29T19:48:18Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > We have like 100,000 titles. It would be impossible to change this particular horse in midstream. Not to mention prohibitively expensive. I don’t know how many titles our local store has–it fills three rooms with shelves–but this is the system they use. Each case has an index card in it with the name on it, and you just grab the index card to take up to the front, where they grab the DVD from massive cabinets. I think they had to shut down for a week to implement it. (FTR, this is also an independent store, a store that prides themselves on carrying the best and worst movies in town; I think you would love it!) And yeah, as long as you’d also get suspicious of a urine-smelling, street-patina white dude, I don’t see a problem. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/37 "2008-11-29T21:12:30Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > We have like 100,000 titles. It would be impossible to change this particular horse in midstream. Not to mention prohibitively expensive. Do you not have the shelf space outside of the public display area? Is that the problem? Because I don’t see how you can’t spare the labor hours. And if most of your titles are DVDs then space shouldn’t really be an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/38 "2008-11-29T23:59:00Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > We have like 100,000 titles. It would be impossible to change this particular horse in midstream. Not to mention prohibitively expensive. Logistics-wise it’s easy: you do it on the fly, as rentals are returned, you put the videos in a cabinet and a card or sticker on the box, and do the rest as time permits. Price-wise, yes, it’s going to cost your boss a few thousand dollars, but that’s less than he’s losing, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/39 "2008-11-30T00:32:50Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > nothing of what i just read made much sense. > > 1 - you work at an independent video retail shop (not hollywood video, blockbuster, etc) in downtown Seattle that stocks 100,000 videos but never gave the empty-box idea a try even when that is the prevailing MO of the entire rental industry? > > \*\*My boss bought the store as a going concern, like 6 years ago. \*\* > > 2 - you’re able to stock 100,000 videos but unable to install security on those videos because of prohibitive costs? Even the cost of switching over to the empty-box idea is prohibitive because the cost of theft is significantly less than the man hours needed to convert? How many movies are being stolen? 3-5 a week? I feel like that’s the cost you’ve decided as acceptable since it’s not worth switching over to no-box. > > **Um, so at least that much does make sense to you..** > > 3 - are you’re mad at yourself for assuming homeless people steal, or recognizing that most homeless people in your store are black? assuming homeless people steal is still profiling, but operating under more accurate parameters. > > **Homeless people don’t have DVD players. There’s no reason for them to be in a DVD rental store. Even so, I don’t kick them out unless they behave badly.** > > 4 - racism makes no exceptions. if you’re racist, you follow around black people - piss drenched or not. Do you not follow white hobos? I feel like that would be the first justification you gave yourself when the doubts of race-neutrality arose. > > **We had a white homeless guy last week. His behavior made me suspicious, so I had Mike go and “organize” the shelves between the homeless guy and the door.** > > 5 - Winnona Ryder. > > 6 - you shouldn’t be stocking meet dave anyway. it was probably the quality fairy doing you a favor. > > **THat’s what I said. I said we should be kicking out people who rent that movie anyway.** … ---
**Author:** ![Dripping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d2c977/32.png) [@Dripping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dripping)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648/40 "2008-11-30T03:00:12Z")
I don’t get all the hand-wringing and frantic PC-ness here. If blacks are stealing shit at a higher rate than other races, then duh, keep a better on eye the blacks. :rolleyes: If blacks don’t like it, maybe they need to collectively smack some sense into those of their race who are doing all the stealing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-profile-or-not-to-profile-a-retailers-dilemma/474648.md?page=3)