# To select SDMB Cheatriots' Defenders **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426 "2015-05-06T21:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/241 "2015-09-04T22:28:59Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > His performance after the deflated balls were discovered involved a whopping one and a half games. > > I expect his completion percentage will drop and both his and the team’s fumble rates will go up markedly. Interested in a wager? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/242 "2015-09-05T00:50:30Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Interested in a wager? I’m not opposed. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/243 "2015-09-05T12:23:35Z")
Good, something else to mock you for. As if you hadn’t already provided enough material. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/244 "2015-09-05T12:37:58Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Good, something else to mock you for. As if you hadn’t already provided enough material. Well, one of us has become nearly universally reviled on the boards anyway. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/245 "2015-09-06T02:53:41Z")
Hi. I’ve been a casual New England fan since Steve Grogan was bouncing 100 mph passes off receivers’ facemasks five yards downfield, I have not made an exhaustive, or even a very energetic, study of the issues, and I once worked for some hard-core labor lawyers in a grotesquely anti-labor state, and this is what I think: 1. The Patriots probably cheated by under-inflating (or minimally inflating on a cold day) several footballs in a playoff game. The probable cheating was certainly done to benefit Tom Brady’s preferences for squishier footballs, and was likely carried out Murder in the Cathedral style, (although, a genuine recording of either Brady or Belichik’s voice saying “will no one rid me of these air-greedy pigskins?” would be a joy) without anyone very important having to say anything directly for it to be carried out; 2. The cheating, much like the cameras a while ago, had an insignificant impact on the game, so much so this time that the team made sure not to cheat with all the balls, which was good as their success with the legal balls was much greater. 3. It’s still cheating. It’s playing the game without respect for the foundation of the game, which (whether it’s football, baseball, jai-alai or whist) is the rules under which it is played. And this is true even if (as I suspect) this episode itself was designed not to gain a tactical advantage in this game, but to (as I suspect) to completely discombobulate future opponents who must now be concerned not only about how to legally play the game, but how an opponent might not, and how to detect and counteract that, and whether and how\* they\* might cheat to win. 4. So I’m ashamed of the Patriots for cheating and sullying games they would have won had they played them straight. Whether they did it from a lack of confidence (_real_ hard to believe with Belichik and Brady) or just as another layer of gamesmanship (\*real \* easy to believe), it is disrespect for the game they are the foremost exponents of (swallow the grammar, please). 5. However, there’s worse behavior afoot. The NFL investigating with an “independent” commission that was not, releasing inaccurate information to the media about the commission’s findings, not correcting it for several days, demanding an employee’s cell phone with no contractual or legal basis, punishing a team without contractual or legal basis, (rule book: 25K: NFL: ONE MILLION DOLLARS, plus draft picks); punishing an individual employee against contractual and legal rules. The fact that a member of a barely-legal hut incredibly profitable consortium accepts an illegal punishment isn’t very surprising, but, I gotta tell you: all that is a much worse blight on society than the Patriots winning a trophy. And, unlike anything else that happens here, a judge calling a halt to that crap will benefit hard working Americans everywhere. 6. Bottom line: Patriots cheated, NFL cheated worse, and has been at it for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/246 "2015-09-06T03:25:48Z")
Hey! King of Soup! Where have you been? You’ve been missed. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/247 "2015-09-06T12:46:15Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Well, one of us has become nearly universally reviled on the boards anyway. Still having trouble grasping what’s happened to you, I see. Someday it will dawn on you. Maybe. BTW, how’s that statistical analysis coming, Mr. Expert? Figured out how to run ANOVA yet? **King** , the evidence does not support there having been \*any \*underinflation _at all_, despite the desperate need of some (see above) to continue believing in Wells’ honesty nevertheless, to help rationalize their childish hatred. Other than that, you’re right, although you could have gone on to mention other teams and what the “investigation” if any showed _there_. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/248 "2015-09-06T13:04:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > BTW, how’s that statistical analysis coming, Mr. Expert? Figured out how to run ANOVA yet? You would say “how to run _an_ ANOVA” if you weren’t an idiot and knew what you were talking about. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/249 "2015-09-06T14:30:40Z")
Hi, **Hentor**. You know how it is: I was working on a post, couldn’t think of a rhyme for “interminably dull pastiche,” and before I knew it a decade had come and gone. Nice to be here. To me the funniest part is the special rule that allows every team to bring their own balls to the game in the first place (somewhere in the Carolinas, Gaylord Perry is thinking wrong place, wrong time). Once you’ve done _that_, the moralizing rings a tad hollow. It’s icing on the cake that Brady, proponent of said rule, actually said publically more than once that he was for the rule because he liked softer footballs. Some like 'em soft, some like 'em scuffed, some like a shallow spiral groove cut into them, some like 'em scented lightly with lavender. It doesn’t excuse the Patriots, but I understand the point of view that in a system where everybody gets to cheat a little bit, the real poor sportsmanship is for one of the willing participants in the scheme to suddenly call foul against an opponent. I notice I have been consistently misspelling Bill Belichick’s name. Oops. At any rate, it does bother me to believe, as I do, that he’s willing to sacrifice a reputation for honesty for the strategic advantage of muddling his opponents’ thinking. I believe at this point he’d allow himself to be seen installing cameras on a snowplow with underinflated tires just for the joy of messing with the other coach and league officials. I also think Tom Brady came too late to the understanding that he does not enjoy that feeling. I also think both of them managed to share the obloquy with the whole team, and I don’t like that much. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/250 "2015-09-06T15:32:00Z")
**The King of Soup** , you have a little bit of a point about the sensibility of allowing teams to prep their balls as they like. But you’re wrong about the cheating part. It’s kind of like Pinewood Derby. Did you ever do Pinewood Derby? That’s a boy scout thing. There are rules about the length and weight of the cars, but apart from that you can prep your car however you like. It’s legal as long as it gets certified before the race by the judges for being within legal specs. Tom Brady was sneaking extra lead washers on to his Pinewood Derby car after the judges had certified them. He is not a Trustworthy, Honest, or Clean scout. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/251 "2015-09-06T16:38:42Z")
So, no ANOVA or you’d know that is not true. First Rule of Holes, Mr. Expert. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/252 "2015-09-06T16:45:25Z")
**Hentor** , I don’t think we’re disagreeing, really. I believe the Patriots underinflated some balls in violation of the rules, and that they did it because Tom Brady (and maybe other players who handled the ball) liked them that way. And I get that it should be possible to accommodate these preferences while still enforcing outer boundaries with respect to psi (I think it’s incredibly dumb, but I get it). I’m in a little trouble with **ElvisL1ves** because I believe this in the “Well, duh” sense rather than the “mathematically proven” sense, but I’m allowed to do that, I think. But I also think the existence of a rule allowing teams to provide and prepare their own game balls, manipulating the degree of inflation, surface smoothness, etc., trivializes the offense when the rule is broken/norms are exceeded. Not sure comparisons with soapbox derby (or to some degree NASCAR, I suppose) are apt because those endeavors are all about finding the allowable difference that confers advantage – that’s the whole point. In that sense, it’s more like those challenges bored physics teachers give their classes involving a box of drinking straws and an egg dropped from the school roof than a sports contest. And I’m absolutely clear in my conviction that the NFL behaved extremely badly throughout, and that colors my thinking some. But, simply, did the Patriots cheat? No argument from me there. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/253 "2015-09-06T17:08:15Z")
From that perspective, consider Jay Feely, a kicker. Kicker balls have much stricter rules about doctoring. Mainly that you can’t, as opposed to regular balls that can be doctored freely. When the league found out that the Jets were [doctoring kicker balls in 2009](http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/31/feelys-presence-may-have-been-a-useful-coincidence-for-brady-nflpa/), what happened to their kicker Jay Feely? Nothing. They didn’t even investigate him. This is pretty much nothing but sour grapes from whiners. The poster boy for that is of course [Jerry Rice](http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25061154/jerry-rice-admitted-to-cheating-just-days-before-calling-pats-cheaters), who described his own cheating this way: > [@](#): > > “I know this might be a little illegal, guys, I just put a little spray, a little stickum on them, to make sure that texture is a little sticky,” Rice says in the video that was unearthed by the readers over at [ProFootballTalk.com](http://ProFootballTalk.com). This is how he describes the Patriots cheating: > [@](#): > > “I’m going to be point blank, I feel like it’s cheating,” Rice said. “Because you have an edge up on your opponent and its unfortunate that it happened… I’ve played in cold weather, I know how hard the football is and you can grip the leather just a little bit better [if it’s deflated].” > > Rice didn’t stop with the cheating comment either, he also added that if the Patriots end up winning the Super Bowl, which they did, their title should have an asterisk next to it. > > “I think you have to really put an asterisk on it, because this is going to follow them, you know, for the rest of their lives, because when you look at it, when people go back and they think about the New England Patriots, they’re going to think about these controversies,” Rice said. Nice hypocrisy there. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/254 "2015-09-06T17:22:54Z")
**The King of Soup** , we are in agreement as regards the rule. The equipment should be uniform for both teams. Give them an inch, and all that. The league should go back to the pre-Brady rule. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/255 "2015-09-06T20:14:15Z")
I stopped following this story, oh, eight months go, so I have a couple questions: 1. Did the NFL take away the Patriots’ win? 2. Can the new season start soon enough so you guys can find something new to argue about? I think I woulda heard about #1 if it happened, and if the win stands you guys are pissing in the wind. For #2, as a bit of a baseball fan I know that this debate will continue for at least the next 75 years, but a guy can hope. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/256 "2015-09-06T20:17:51Z")
To me, right now the big issue in NFL-style football is whether it should be played at all, so I’m able to not sweat the small stuff so much. Anyhow, reading the NFL rulebook is actually kind of fun. It looks as if it were written by extremely competent lawyers who had no idea what “sports” is, and it was then delivered for interpretation/execution to sports lovers who never learned legalese. For example, a “level playing field,” a phrase that is used axiomatically to denote fair play, is not mandated by the NFL, though they do have a lot to say about how thick the swath of whiteness surrounding the game (metaphor alert!) should be. Also, apparently you can do pretty much anything you want to a football _except_ adjust its psi outside 12.5 - 13.5 or erase Roger Goodell’s signature, as long as its approximate weight, length and circumference are left intact. Rub it with sandpaper, boil it in maple syrup, bury it in peat for a year–all okay. As someone said, the real crime is what’s _legal_, but that just makes the guy who couldn’t manage to cheat within the rules look kinda stupid. Except if the point was just to put the thought into opponents’ heads, so they’d always be waiting for that second “gotcha” (with a nod at the old joke). I think the Patriots miscalculated for once. I think they figured underinflated footballs was going to make their quarterback happy, make zero real difference in the outcome of any game, and if it came out, drive their opponents crazy at very little cost ($25K for the equipment violation). And I understand the impulse to up the cost for this shoddy, shabby behavior. But in his effort to do that, Goodell violated lots of much more important rules than the one he was pretending to enforce, and for the sake of workers who need protection a lot more than Tom Brady does, I’m happy he got nabbed for it. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/257 "2015-09-06T23:40:52Z")
> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > Rub it with sandpaper, boil it in maple syrup, bury it in peat for a year–all okay. You can do that? Legally? No need to hide a bit of sandpaper to rough it up or some rosin to improve your grip? A lot of opportunity is left out there for the taking. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/258 "2015-09-07T01:25:38Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > You can do that? Legally? No need to hide a bit of sandpaper to rough it up or some rosin to improve your grip? A lot of opportunity is left out there for the taking. This is all the rules have to say about the ball: [ > [@NFL Rulebook](#): > > RULE 2. THE BALL > > SECTION 1 - DIMENSIONS > > The Ball must be a “Wilson,” hand selected, bearing the signature of the Commissioner of the League, Roger Goodell. > > The ball shall be made up of an inflated (12½ to 13½ pounds) urethane bladder enclosed in a pebble grained, leather case (natural tan color) without corrugations of any kind. It shall have the form of a prolate spheroid and the size and weight shall be: long axis, 11 to 11¼ inches; long circumference, 28 to 28½ inches; short circumference, 21 to 21¼ inches; weight, 14 to 15 ounces. > > The Referee shall be the sole judge as to whether all balls offered for play comply with these specifications. A pump is to be furnished by the home club, and the balls shall remain under the supervision of the Referee until they are delivered to the ball attendant just prior to the start of the game. > > SECTION 2 - SUPPLY > > Each team will make 12 primary balls available for testing by the Referee two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of the game to meet League requirements. The home team will also make 12 backup balls available for testing in all stadiums. In addition, the visitors, at their discretion, may bring 12 backup balls to be tested by the Referee for games held in outdoor stadiums. For all games, six new footballs, sealed in a special box and shipped by the manufacturer to the Referee, will be opened in the officials’ locker room two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of the game. These balls are to be specially marked by the Referee and used exclusively for the kicking game. > > In the event a home team ball does not conform to specifications, or its supply is exhausted, the Referee shall secure a proper ball from the visitors and, failing that, use the best available ball. Any such circumstances must be reported to the Commissioner. > > In case of rain or a wet, muddy, or slippery field, a playable ball shall be used at the request of the offensive team’s center. > > The Game Clock shall not stop for such action (unless undue delay occurs). > > Note: It is the responsibility of the home team to furnish playable balls at all times by attendants from either side of the playing field. ]([http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2015-nfl-rulebook#rule-2.-the-ball](http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2015-nfl-rulebook#rule-2.-the-ball)) So theoretically, yeah, you can do whatever you want to the ball. I suspect that there might be a point that the ref says “hey, guy. Come on.” But technically you can doctor it as much as you want as long as it meets the basic specifications of dimension, weight, and inflation. And has Roger Goodell’s signature. That’s important. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/259 "2015-09-07T01:35:44Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > I suspect that there might be a point that the ref says “hey, guy. Come on.” But technically you can doctor it as much as you want as long as it meets the basic specifications of dimension, weight, and inflation. And has Roger Goodell’s signature. That’s important. The ref doesn’t see the balls until long after they’ve been doctored, a process that can take months. See [here](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/sports/football/eli-mannings-footballs-are-months-in-making.html?_r=0) for an article about how the Giants trainers prep balls for Eli. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426/260 "2015-09-07T12:08:53Z")
Different sport, but I’ve always preferred how Yankees trainers would prepare [Roger Clemens’ balls](http://deadspin.com/5142053/roger-clemens-will-be-ready-to-pitchright-after-his-sadomasochistic-rubdown). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-select-sdmb-cheatriots-defenders/719426.md?page=14)