# To the lady who called me a homophobic fucktard the other day **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 25, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080 "2005-07-25T17:11:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/141 "2005-07-27T22:37:46Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Had she had a 20 year old man in tow, or had it been a 45 year old man with a 20 year old wife, and the same thing had happened, it would also be disrespectful. Look at some of the comments in this thread attacking the woman for daring to have a spouse half her age. That it was a same-sex couple, when same-sex relationships are routinely dismissed, adds another dimension to it but regardless of the sex or sexuality of the parties it’s disrespectful. I see the point you’re trying to make, but I just don’t see how it applies to **Lord Ashtar** ’s situation. He said the younger woman couldn’t get in there without a parent or legal guardian. The older woman pointed to her ring. Since “spouse” is generally not the same thing as “parent or legal guardian,” he asked a question to clarify what she was trying to say. How is that disrespectful? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/142 "2005-07-27T23:02:00Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Had she had a 20 year old man in tow, or had it been a 45 year old man with a 20 year old wife, and the same thing had happened, it would also be disrespectful. You’re still ignoring the fact that this woman told a barefaced lie about her relationship, which is what precipitated this mindbogglingly minor slight (if it was one at all) that you’re so concerned about. She put **Lord Ashtar** in the position of having to check whether she was lying, because she blatantly misrepresented her relationship in the first place. Had she just _said_ “this is my wife”, rather than lying with a nod and a wink, then **LA** could simply have said “sorry, that’s not legal,” and everything would have been hunkydory. By claiming a status she made it semi-obvious she did not have, she made it inevitable that her relationship would be questioned. I really don’t see how there’s another way of saying “are you _really_ her guardian, or are you in fact full of shit?” that’s more respectful. And I don’t really see why **LA** should be held to a particularly high standard in any case, given that this woman had already lied to him to try and get in to the bar. “No you’re not; fuck off,” would be a more typical response when you try to bullshit your way into a bar, IME. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/143 "2005-07-27T23:12:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I see the point you’re trying to make, but I just don’t see how it applies to **Lord Ashtar** ’s situation. He said the younger woman couldn’t get in there without a parent or legal guardian. The older woman pointed to her ring. Since “spouse” is generally not the same thing as “parent or legal guardian,” he asked a question to clarify what she was trying to say. How is that disrespectful? What I found disrespectful was the asking if she was her daughter when he was reasonably sure that by pointing to the ring she was indicating a spousal relationship. Had he asked neutrally, “I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you mean, what is your relationship?” then I would have had no issue with it. > [@DeadBadger](#): > > You’re still ignoring the fact that this woman told a barefaced lie about her relationship, which is what precipitated this mindbogglingly minor slight (if it was one at all) that you’re so concerned about. Or, considering the number of smart-as-a-whip Dopers in this very thread who’ve questioned whether a spousal relationship would allow an underage spouse to enter a bar, it might just be that the woman didn’t understand that the relationship didn’t qualify. I don’t know if she was lying, mistaken or what. And frankly, y’all are making a much bigger deal out of this than I am. I was pretty much done with this days ago. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/144 "2005-07-27T23:14:55Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > You’re still ignoring the fact that this woman told a barefaced lie about her relationship, which is what precipitated this mindbogglingly minor slight (if it was one at all) that you’re so concerned about. She put **Lord Ashtar** in the position of having to check whether she was lying, because she blatantly misrepresented her relationship in the first place. Had she just _said_ “this is my wife”, rather than lying with a nod and a wink, then **LA** could simply have said “sorry, that’s not legal,” and everything would have been hunkydory. Oh, I agree, but I don’t think it would be hunkydory. The woman surely would have used that as an excuse to be all righteous at **Lord Ashtar**. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/145 "2005-07-27T23:26:50Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > And frankly, y’all are making a much bigger deal out of this than I am. I was pretty much done with this days ago. Dude; I, like _totally_ didn’t care by last week already. I could not care for my country. More care has been taken by UPS employees playing basketball with your Christmas presents. I am the evil Care Bear who doesn’t give a fuck. Hey, a mouse in our living room! ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/146 "2005-07-27T23:51:44Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Well, obviously you’re taking it as an accusation of homophobia, but that’s your damage, not mine. I respectfully suggest you stick to _online_ poker, **Otto** , if your bluffs are always that transparent. And get your fucking story straight before you go calling me a liar and then trying to weasel out by saying “Oh, I don’t care. I lost interest in this long ago. La-di-da.” > [@Left hand of Dorkness](#): > > Ignorance ain’t a problem. Surliness, unsupported accusations, and general creepy meanness are. Couldn’t have said it better. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/147 "2005-07-27T23:54:41Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > What I found disrespectful was the asking if she was her daughter when he was reasonably sure that by pointing to the ring she was indicating a spousal relationship. Had he asked neutrally, “I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you mean, what is your relationship?” then I would have had no issue with it. So, if he wasn’t reasonably sure what she was indicating, then the exact same question _wouldn’t_ have been disrespecting her relationship? How does that work, exactly? > [@](#): > > And frankly, y’all are making a much bigger deal out of this than I am. I was pretty much done with this days ago. The fact that you’re still posting about it suggests otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/148 "2005-07-28T08:14:26Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > Regardless of your state, IMHO it’s thoroughly homophobic to not recognize gay marriage socially. In a legal setting there are different issues, but anyone who says “no you’re not married in _my_ state” just to make a point is a homophobic ass. The laws are bigoted, and rubbing them in is a bigoted thing to do. If an antebellum Southerner said to a black man “well in my state you’re a slave and just 2/3 of a person” that would surely be seen as bigoted except in an extremely limited number of scenarios (like a lawyer explaining the legal status, etc.) IMHO you appeal to immoral laws at your moral peril. I’m cool with recognising gay marriage socially. If it’d been my hot-tub party and she’d said “She’s my wife” I’d have said “Oh, how nice!” and kept any bigoted homophobic reservations I might possibly have to myself. But this wasn’t a social-recognition situation. Responding “No, she isn’t” in the OP’s scenario would have been boorish, I admit, but it would have been factually correct… and as to the antebellum Southerner, I think acknowledging even two-thirds of the black man’s humanity would have been considered unusually enlightened at the time. Whether the existing laws on gay marriage are immoral is a _whole_ ‘nuther debate, and I just ain’t goin’ there unless Thomas and the Breakdown Train are put on standby. > [@uglybeech](#): > > If the legal status of her marriage had been relevant, the appropriate thing to do would be to say “legally I’m not allowed to let you in.” Or something like that. To say you’re not really married here would be dickish. Well, as you sow, so you reap. Appealing to a marriage which is a legal fiction at that time and place is dickish too. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/149 "2005-07-28T08:35:12Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Well, as you sow, so you reap. Appealing to a marriage which is a legal fiction at that time and place is dickish too. Oh hell no. She was dickish only because she did the “she’s my daughter, she’s my wife” thing then got mad at LA for being confused. But just for saying she’s her wife? Considering the law denies her equal treatment, etc - I don’t see what else you can expect her to call the girl if it really is a spousal relationship in every other way. That and she’s allowed her civil disobedience when she doesn’t have the same civil rights. Plus it’s not like she was trying to be deceptive - “oh no LA, we really are the one gay couple Viriginia does recognize, trust me.” ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/150 "2005-07-28T09:28:49Z")
Considering the law denies her equal treatment, etc - I don’t see why she should call the girl her wife when she isn’t for the practical purpose at hand, other than because she has a big phucking chip on her shoulder and wants to take it out on any authority figure at hand. I don’t think the case for equal treatment is much advanced by trying to bully a pool-hall bouncer into recognising the validity of lesbian marriage when he hasn’t the authority to do so in the first place, and when it wouldn’t make a tittle of difference if he did. _shrug_ Maybe it’s important to the guardian-protector-mammabear image she wants to project to her little wifelet. I _think_ it’s not homophobia that makes me say that, because I _think_ I’d be just as skeeved out by a 44yo man being as assholish to show off to his 20yo wife. But I’m “honest in my vices” enough to admit that I shouldn’t automatically let myself off the hook until I’ve the actual evidence to prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/151 "2005-07-28T13:45:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The fact that you’re still posting about it suggests otherwise. Oh, what the fuck ever, Doctor Freud. I posted my opinion, then began responding to attacks on that opinion and me. So I’m done with that. Buh bye. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/152 "2005-07-28T14:34:20Z")
What, again? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/153 "2005-07-28T15:59:46Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Oh, what the fuck ever, Doctor Freud. I posted my opinion, then began responding to attacks on that opinion and me. So I’m done with that. Buh bye. Right, and while you’re still responding to “attacks,” you’re not really “done” with the thread, are you? I’m still interested in hearing an answer to the first part of my last post, by the way. Would **Ashtar** still have been disrespecting the woman’s relationship if he’d been genuinely confused as to what she was trying to say, and not “pretty sure” what she was trying to say? ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/154 "2005-07-28T17:24:43Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I don’t see why she should call the girl her wife when she isn’t for the practical purpose at hand I’d like to provide some other examples and ask you if you think these situations are the same, or somehow different. Let’s say a pair of first cousins gets married in a state where this is legal and visits a state where it isn’t, and where such marriages are not legally recognized. (Laws on recognition of out-of-state cousin marriages are kind of spotty, or I’d give specifics) The wife becomes sick/injured and unconscious, and someone at the hospital wants to see if he can make medical decisions on her behalf. He’s asked what their relationship is. Should he say she’s his wife? Would you say he’s only calling her his wife because “[he] has a big phucking chip on [his] shoulder and wants to take it out on any authority figure at hand,” or not? Or let’s say my boyfriend and I get married and take a trip to the Vatican. (Though I have no idea why we’d want to go there…) He was baptized Catholic as a kid, much to his current dismay. I am 100% unsaved. According to the Catholic church, our marriage would be invalid. > [@1983 Code of Canon Law](#): > > Can. 1086 §1. A marriage between two persons, one of whom has been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it and has not defected from it by a formal act and the other of whom is not baptized, is invalid. Imagine a similar situation to the one described above happens. Same questions. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/155 "2005-07-28T18:29:24Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Considering the law denies her equal treatment, etc - I don’t see why she should call the girl her wife when she isn’t for the practical purpose at hand, other than because she has a big phucking chip on her shoulder and wants to take it out on any authority figure at hand. Again, she could very well be ignorant of how exactly the law applies in this case–whether, for example, the bar owner has a leeway in whom he considers a legal guardian, or what sort of non-marital social contract will suffice to allow her underage wife into the bar, or if the local jurisdiction has extended preliminary recognition of SSM conducted in other states. It’s not her job to understand all these legal details; it’s the bar owner’s job. And if she had tried to get her underage girltoy in and accepted the rejection gracefully, there would have been no problem. **Otto** , I don’t fault her for having a romance with a woman far her junior. Hell, my first girlfriend out of high school was almost a decade older than me. What I **do** fault her for along those lines is treating her partner like a child, which this angry virago does at various points throughout the story. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/156 "2005-07-28T18:46:13Z")
I’m going to have to go over this thread tonite. I think Miller has scored some more points, making him a double winner. Of course I’ll have to check to be sure. Later. First I have to finish listening to some songs by Mötley Crüe.(They aren’t one of those new German industrial bands. They’re an 80s band.) ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/157 "2005-07-28T19:06:49Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > What I **do** fault her for along those lines is treating her partner like a child, which this angry virago does at various points throughout the story. > > Daniel At least as told by the OP… ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/158 "2005-07-28T19:12:47Z")
Is there anything I can clarify for you, **Homebrew**? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/159 "2005-07-28T19:17:02Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > At least as told by the OP… Well…yes. It’s possible that events really transpired like this: **Lord Ashtar** actually works at a bookstore, not at a bar. And he runs the register, not works the door. And he was approached by a couple of children, not by a 40-year-old and a 20-year-old woman. And the kids asked him for a copy of _Harry Potter_, not asked him for entry. And he screamed at them, “DIE ILITERATE SCUM!” and killed them, not politely informed them that the younger one could not enter. However, lacking any particular reason to distrust the OP’s description of events, and especially lacking any reason to believe some alternate version of events, I’ll stick to the OP, with the _caveat_ that if the OP contains lies, my responses don’t apply. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080/160 "2005-07-28T19:36:33Z")
So you don’t think it’s possible there was something in his tone or the look on his face that caused the reaction from the woman? You don’t think that his perspective on this is going to be slightly different than hers? The rush to label her with all types of negative labels presumes the events transpired exactly as reported. I grant that this is probably how the OP preceived the events and is not intentionally misleading us. But as **Otto** notes, his seemingly flippant dismissal of her ring and the relationship that signifies probably had something to do with setting her off. If a 40 year old man entering with a younger woman had flashed him a ring he damn sure would have known that it meant they are married. He even indicates he was pretty sure that’s what she meant but he chose to make a smart assed comment instead that can easily be interpreted as a dismissal of their marriage. I’d presume that she chose the term “legal guardian” instead of spouse because of the three signs so dutifully noted mentioned “parent or legal guardian”. If a minor can enter the bar with a parent, it’s reasonable to think that a spouse can enter a building with a spouse. My guess is that she didn’t imply that a spouse is a legal guardian in general, but for the purposes of admittance to the bar. By showing the OP her ring, she clearly is indicating that they consider themselves married, and possibly legally are somewhere. From her perspective, the door-man’s question dismisses the signficance of her ring and, to her mind, probably was intentionally so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-lady-who-called-me-a-homophobic-fucktard-the-other-day/314080.md?page=9)