# To the liberals who utterly dominate the season-ticket holding ranks for the Wash Nat Opera **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 30, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667 "2013-10-30T18:27:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/241 "2013-11-04T05:40:47Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I’ve been going to the Opera infrequently but since I was 16. My impression in Philly, New York City, San Francisco, D.C.- you name it- is that the attendees were OVERWHELMINGLY blueblood Republicans. When I first heard the term “limousine liberal” I immediately envisioned the crowd outside the Kennedy Center. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > At the first intermission, the rich-looking guy next to us turned to his wife and commented “That black woman seems pretty good, doesn’t she?” That’s _Leontyne Motherlovin’ Price_, you fool! Why didn’t you just stay at the bar with the rest of the Beautiful Rich People and give your tickets to a couple of Juilliard students - you’d \*all \*have had a more fulfilling evening. :rolleyes: I have spent the second half at the bar more times than I can count. They’re not supposed to keep the bars open but my brother-in-law and I tip well. > [@Muffin](#): > > If they are smeared in chocolate, then I’m in. The chorus or the patrons? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I have yet to see any evidence that opera watchers are more likely to be liberals than conservatives. I think they trend liberal at the Kennedy Center. > [@](#): > > Beyond that, is there anything inherently wrong with the government trying to support high culture since it seems to stand the test of time so well. Whose high culture? From what I can tell, high culture mostly means stuff that came out of Europe. I don’t have a problem with the government funding PBS but opera, ballet and concerts are exclusionary almost by definition. > [@](#): > > People have been watching Shakespeare and listening to Beethoven for several centuries and I see no reason to believe this won’t be the case several centuries from now whereas I can say with almost mathematical certainty the same will not be true for either James Patterson or Brittany Spears. Does high culture only come from Europe? But when we talk about high culture, we are mostly talking about Europe right? I think that les miserables and the beatles will be around centuries from now. I think that a lot of movies and books will be around centuries from now. Of course they will only appeal to a small group of elitists who look down their noses at holodeck adventures and jacking into the simulated environment on the galaxynet. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/242 "2013-11-04T08:02:48Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > You stumbled upon a nest of them! Best use a flamethrower. “When man entered the liberal age, he opened the door to a new world. What we may eventually find in that new world, no one can predict.” You were watching TCM last week, weren’t you? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/243 "2013-11-04T11:07:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Why didn’t you just stay at the bar with the rest of the Beautiful Rich People and give your tickets to a couple of Juilliard students - you’d \*all \*have had a more fulfilling evening. :rolleyes: Speaking as a former impoverished music student and current performer - yes fucking please. Better to have a full house of appreciative music-lovers than a half-empty one full of shallow idiots. Mind you, better shallow idiots than no one at all. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/244 "2013-11-04T12:50:51Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Better to have a full house of appreciative music-lovers than a half-empty one full of shallow idiots. Well, there’s a bold statement… ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/245 "2013-11-04T13:35:34Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Well, there’s a bold statement… I admit to hyperbole, but as a performer you can tell the difference between an audience that genuinely understands and appreciates a performance (and indeed can differentiate between a good performance, a mediocre one and a great one) and one where they’re just clapping because the music’s over. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/246 "2013-11-04T14:21:08Z")
Right hand clapping into left hand, the audience is approving and appreciative. Left clapping into right, audience is celebrating their endurance. Both hands clapping into each other, the audience is a three year old child or schizophrenic. In most places, a standing ovation is a gesture of fulsome approval and appreciation. In Minnesota, however, it only suggests that the audience believes your mother is in attendance, and they don’t want to hurt her feelings. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/247 "2013-11-04T17:53:05Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I admit to hyperbole, but as a performer you can tell the difference between an audience that genuinely understands and appreciates a performance (and indeed can differentiate between a good performance, a mediocre one and a great one) and one where they’re just clapping because the music’s over. I just meant that you got the order wrong (I think). I.e. a half-empty house of appreciative listeners is preferable to a full house of idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/248 "2013-11-04T18:03:18Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > **Bricker** , I’m going to have to join the group saying you need to learn to let it go. Yes, this is probably wise. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/249 "2013-11-04T18:05:34Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > So, basically, by pitting your fellow theater-goers, you are blaming the people around you for your own personal failures. Isn’t that what conservatives accuse liberals of doing? No. It’s a strawman, undoubtedly concocted by a liberal with no real understanding of personal responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/250 "2013-11-04T18:14:13Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Sort of happened to me, a few weeks ago. I was at a comic-book store, and joked, “Well, at least the government shut-down hasn’t closed this store.” A non-partisan joke, or so I intended it. > > The customer next to me said, “Yeah, but those fucking Democrats will get around to it.” > > I shrugged and ignored it. Anybody that stupid isn’t worth fighting with. > > (If the store manager had said it, I’d have said, “So long, pal, it’s been nice being one of your customers.”) > > Ignoring idiots is very often the course of the highest wisdom. Yes, I see that. But ignoring them doesn’t necessarily mean you view their outbursts with approval, or even with equanimity, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/251 "2013-11-04T19:07:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. It’s a strawman, undoubtedly concocted by a liberal with no real understanding of personal responsibility. But your evening wasn’t spoiled by a liberal’s lack of understanding of personal responsibility. It was spoiled because you were irritated when others expressed opinions contrary to your own. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/252 "2013-11-04T19:15:32Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > But your evening wasn’t spoiled by a liberal’s lack of understanding of personal responsibility. It was spoiled because you were irritated when others expressed opinions contrary to your own. No, and that’s not the end of the analysis in any case. My irritation was not that “…others expressed opinions contrary to [my] own,” but that they were free to voice their opinions when propriety apparently mandated my silence. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/253 "2013-11-04T19:25:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, and that’s not the end of the analysis in any case. > > My irritation was not that “…others expressed opinions contrary to [my] own,” but that they were free to voice their opinions when propriety apparently mandated my silence. So it was your wife who spoiled your evening? Except for her daggered stare, you were as free to express yourself as they were. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/254 "2013-11-04T19:30:49Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > But your evening wasn’t spoiled by a liberal’s lack of understanding of personal responsibility. It was spoiled because you were irritated when others expressed opinions contrary to your own. I think his evening was ruined by someone spouting political views in a polite environment where such things should not be done. Same with someone holding forth with religious views in a neutral setting. Half time at the opera is not the place for a political rally, no matter which side you fall on. I suspect Bricker overestimates the number of liberals in attendance at the show but ideally he shouldn’t be able to tell political stance of anyone there. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/255 "2013-11-04T19:38:50Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’m glad somebody made this point. I don’t mind funding PBS and having PBS or some PBS subsidiary pay a fee to broadcast opera, ballet and concerts but subsidizing the cost of tickets is like subsidizing champagne. > [@](#): > > Snip the PBS point. The PBS point is pretty important because I think you can subsidize something that is subject to wide consumption like PBS but subsidizing concert tickets just seems like subsidizing a “luxury”. > [@](#): > > Just ask why high culture is good for society. Because now we’re discussing the _principle_. If opera on PBS can be justified, so can subsidies for the Kennedy Center. PBS is non-exclusionary. The poor can watch PBS just as easily as the rich. The poor have limited access to opera at the Kennedy Center. > [@](#): > > Anyway, > > 1. Arguably we’re not discussing high culture (which _will_ exist) but access to high culture. In a democracy, provision of the latter leads to a stronger nation. A) why doesn’t PBS achieve that access better than subsidizing $200 tickets? B) How does it lead to a stronger nation? > [@](#): > > 1. Why spend funds on cultural heritage? Because it’s valued. Whose culture? > [@](#): > > (Admittedly I think you weren’t arguing against high culture but rather against subsidies for US National Cultural Treasures. I guess my take is that I’d rather have the public be a stakeholder in such enterprises, as a expression of cultural pride. I admit I care less about funds extended to Backbridge, NE or even my locale, aside from political horsetrading.) I am pretty OK with the smithsonian and PBS. I would be OK with a subsidy of a touring national orchestra and ballet company. > [@](#): > > Here my disagreement is more pronounced. Look. We’re talking about factors of five or so (WAG). I makes no sense to whine about $1.2 million in direct outlays and pass over $5.4 million in indirect outlays from the federal government. Unless we’re discussing RO. Yes, of course the charitable deduction is effectively a subsidy of the charity but its no more directed at Opera than it is directed at Saddleback church. > [@](#): > > This is defensible point. My problem with it is basically one of scale. Art subsidies are dwarfed by Hollywood revenue by what? 10,000x? 100,000x? If you can spend a tiny amount of money to prop high culture, it seems to me like a good investment for any country with a modicum of pride. And cultural diversity is a virtue. National pride? There aren’t that many American operas (we just call them musicals and they don’t need subsidy because they are awesome). I thought the point was that these arts don’t need subsidies in large cities. > [@](#): > > But I simply think that in terms of governmental spending there are far bigger fish in the sea. Yeah, I agree. I also agree that we should reform the charitable deduction. > [@Gyrate](#): > > Speaking as a former impoverished music student and current performer - yes fucking please. Better to have a full house of appreciative music-lovers than a half-empty one full of shallow idiots. > > Mind you, better shallow idiots than no one at all. As one of the shallow idiots, I think most of the shallow idiots don’t want to be there any more than they want to watch Muriel’s Wedding or Bridget Jones’ Diary. Its not that I don’t appreciate orchestra music, most of my favorite movies wouldn’t be the same without it. The Darth Vader music evokes a Pavlovian response in me. But I can’t just close my eyes and appreciate the music the way other people seem to be able to. I certainly don’t get anything out of watching some dude flailing his arms with his back turned to me. Its like having a good cheese with my wine. It definitely enhances the wine but usually means little by itself. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/256 "2013-11-04T19:49:29Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So it was your wife who spoiled your evening? Except for her daggered stare, you were as free to express yourself as they were. No – in fact, her stare reminded me of correct social convention. Had she not been there to stare, it’s true, I likely would have voiced my own political views in response. But then I’d have been guilty of a lesser version of the same offense as they were. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/257 "2013-11-04T19:57:09Z")
The really classy thing to do would be to get would be to get all your super rich right wing nut job buddies to gift a billion dollar trust fund to the Opera. Then no one would be able to whine about the lack of government funding, because the Prima Donnas wouldn’t need any. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/258 "2013-11-04T19:58:20Z")
In short, blowhard meets hothead, bell rings and they go back to their corners to watch the opera. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/259 "2013-11-04T20:09:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > National pride? There aren’t that many American operas (we just call them musicals and they don’t need subsidy because they are awesome). The vast majority of opera written in the last 50 years is American. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/260 "2013-11-04T22:40:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t mind funding PBS and having PBS or some PBS subsidiary pay a fee to broadcast opera, ballet and concerts but subsidizing the cost of tickets is like subsidizing champagne. France subsidizes champagne. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I am pretty OK with the smithsonian and PBS. I would be OK with a subsidy of a touring national orchestra and ballet company. In case it wasn’t clear, that crack about France was a joke. There’s a case to be made for a smaller US cultural budget. And I’m not personally fond of opera. But given the small scale of the subsidies, it’s not clear that yanking public support for the Kennedy Center would result in ticket price increases over the long or short run. It could plausibly result in less public outreach. > [@](#): > > The PBS point is pretty important because I think you can subsidize something that is subject to wide consumption like PBS but subsidizing concert tickets just seems like subsidizing a “luxury”. That’s a valid consideration. But again, I question whether the ticket subsidy is a significant one, leaving low income outreach programs aside. > [@](#): > > B) How does it lead to a stronger nation? 1. Hollywood, a huge exporter, benefits from a wide and deep artistic talent pool. Parts of that talent pool are less _directly_ commercial, but they arguably benefit the whole. 2. Great civilizations produce great art. That’s pretty much a tautology. As for who decides what great art is, we discussed that upthread. A: There’s a rough consensus on these things and I can point to wikipedia. In all fairness though, the distinction between high and low art is quite frankly dated. If I truly was convinced that opera was wholly the equivalent of Jaguar or Ferrari production, then I would oppose its subsidy. But I don’t accept that commercial value is the sole measure of artistic merit: I see these as separate criteria. And I want my country to produce the latter as well as the former, for separate reasons. I believe I addressed your main points, DA: let me know if I’ve given something short shrift. > [@Bricker](#): > > No – in fact, her stare reminded me of correct social convention. Had she not been there to stare, it’s true, I likely would have voiced my own political views in response. But then I’d have been guilty of a lesser version of the same offense as they were. Well given the time you’ve spent [on the staircase](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27esprit_de_l%27escalier) you should know that snappy retorts are but one option. A far better response would be humorous and [del]caustic[/del] light (what I might do) or eloquent and diplomatic (John Mace’s preferred approach). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667.md?page=14)