# To the liberals who utterly dominate the season-ticket holding ranks for the Wash Nat Opera **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 30, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667 "2013-10-30T18:27:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/281 "2013-11-05T16:01:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And, frankly, very negative. Except for the positive ones. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/282 "2013-11-05T19:23:54Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > The vast majority of opera written in the last 50 years is American. cite? What percentage of performed operas are American? > [@](#): > > In case it wasn’t clear, that crack about France was a joke. There’s a case to be made for a smaller US cultural budget. I’m not making a case for a smaller cultural budget, I wouldn’t really mind a larger budget. I am making a case for allocating that budget more to things that can be widely consumed, like museums and PBS. > [@](#): > > 1. Hollywood, a huge exporter, benefits from a wide and deep artistic talent pool. Parts of that talent pool are less _directly_ commercial, but they arguably benefit the whole. So we’re subsidizing Hollywood? :dubious: > [@](#): > > 1. Great civilizations produce great art. That’s pretty much a tautology. As for who decides what great art is, we discussed that upthread. A: There’s a rough consensus on these things and I can point to wikipedia. In all fairness though, the distinction between high and low art is quite frankly dated. If I truly was convinced that opera was wholly the equivalent of Jaguar or Ferrari production, then I would oppose its subsidy. But I don’t accept that commercial value is the sole measure of artistic merit: I see these as separate criteria. And I want my country to produce the latter as well as the former, for separate reasons. Don’t you see any cultural skew in the sort of things we consider great art? You don’t see a bit of white privelege in how we currently define great art? > [@](#): > > I believe I addressed your main points, DA: let me know if I’ve given something short shrift. Its a bit off topic but I think there is a skew in what we consider great art and high culture. Its overwhelmingly European. There is less promotion of or appreciation for culture and art from other civilizations. Isn’t that largely the result of what is popular among the consumers of high art? Sure the Kennedy center has the occassional kabuki performance and other multicultural stuff but there seems to be a focus on traditional art forms and these traditional art forms just all happen to be European. To me, that sort of implies that we aren’t promoting art in a vaccuum, we are promoting art that already has the largest audience. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/283 "2013-11-05T20:01:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > cite? > What percentage of performed operas are American? I have no idea. That wasn’t my point though, as your statement was that there “aren’t that many American operas” and those that exist are “called musicals”. I’m probably overstating by saying “vast majority”, but the only relatively recent operas that I can think of that are not American are “The Fly” by Howard Shore, who is Canadian, and “Alice in Wonderland” by South Korean Unsuk Chin. Without thinking very hard, here in St. Louis (which has one medium and two tiny opera companies), recent performances include “Dead Man Walking”, “Trouble in Tahiti”, “Ballad of Baby Doe”, and “Champion”. Next summer there will be “Twenty Seven” and “Streetcar Named Desire”. San Francisco recently premiered “Dolores Claiborne”. New York City Opera, as mentioned, went out performing “Anna Nicole”. I could list a dozen others off the top of my head, but I think the point is clear. Percentages are beside the point. There is a rich and healthy tradition of American opera, and to claim otherwise is plain wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/284 "2013-11-05T20:19:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Except for the positive ones. No need to get cattiony. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/285 "2013-11-05T20:22:02Z")
Another data point, since **Bricker** was at Washington National. The remainder of their season apparently consists of an evening of three 20 minute American Operas, an American holiday opera, Moby Dick (Jake Heggie, an American), Elixir of Love (Donizetti), Magic Flute (Mozart), and An American Soldier (Huang Ruo, Chinese-American). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/286 "2013-11-05T21:12:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > By “took it way too far,” you refer to the fact that I said nothing impolite to anyone, got my drink, returned to my seat…but continued to think about the incident during the last act? I read that “took it way too far” as too much internet whining about something. But hey, whining is what the SDMB is all about. Whining and pie. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/287 "2013-11-05T22:17:15Z")
No whine and cheese? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/288 "2013-11-05T22:21:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > By “took it way too far,” you refer to the fact that I said nothing impolite to anyone, got my drink, returned to my seat…but continued to think about the incident during the last act? And starting a Pit thread about it. That’s part of it too. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/289 "2013-11-06T01:15:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And, frankly, very negative. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Except for the positive ones. Darn it, they lost an electron again! ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/290 "2013-11-06T06:47:33Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m not making a case for a smaller cultural budget, I wouldn’t really mind a larger budget. I am making a case for allocating that budget more to things that can be widely consumed, like museums and PBS. Probably worth a thread someday. The starting point would be to take a good look at the NEA budget. I assume you aren’t especially familar with it: I certainly am not. Incidentally, I have a political argument in the back of my mind. I care little about cultural party favors like opera, though I know others do. But I want to keep the Smithsonian, PBS, NPR and NASA. I also like modern art. Anyway I think of rich folk’s opera and Karen Finley as buffers that prevent the libertarian Huns from trampling our cultural inheritance. One is a bribe and the other a distraction. > [@](#): > > So we’re subsidizing Hollywood? :dubious: Part of industrial policy. > [@](#): > > Don’t you see any cultural skew in the sort of things we consider great art? > > You don’t see a bit of white privilege in how we currently define great art? Yeah, 50 years ago. Today? Not so much. Like I said, the whole concept of “High art” and “Low art” was upended decades ago. Visit the rarified atmosphere of academia and the art museum and a lot of it seems pretty multicultural from my vantage point. World music has had cache since, oh I dunno, the Beatles. The public justifiably freaked when the Taliban blew up Buddhist sculptures. Nova’s programming (PBS) covers the globe. > [@](#): > > Its a bit off topic but I think there is a skew in what we consider great art and high culture. Its overwhelmingly European. There is less promotion of or appreciation for culture and art from other civilizations. Off topic, but I’ve been picking up and dropping this one volume encyclopedic work for years - I’m about 2/3 of the way through: [World Access](http://www.amazon.com/World-Access-Handbook-Citizens-Earth/dp/0684810166/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383719759&sr=8-1&keywords=world+access+petras). It has the sort of feel that I think you’re looking for; it’s a wide introduction to our shared global heritage. $4 used including shipping: a bargain. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/291 "2013-11-06T07:48:28Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > …World music has had cache since… So the Prague midget is on the lam and tries to hide in a church saying “Can you cache a small Czech”? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/292 "2013-11-06T14:12:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > And starting a Pit thread about it. That’s part of it too. Considering the relatively low cost, time- and emotional-investment-wise, of starting a thread, that seems to be the least dramatic of the actions I took. Does “starting a Pit thread,” really support a charge of “taking it too far?” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/293 "2013-11-06T14:18:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Considering the relatively low cost, time- and emotional-investment-wise, of starting a thread, that seems to be the least dramatic of the actions I took. > > Does “starting a Pit thread,” really support a charge of “taking it too far?” No, but you deserve all the mockery you can get. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/294 "2013-11-06T14:22:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > No, but you deserve all the mockery you can get. Of course. A conservative, here, complaining about rude liberals, will of necessity be mocked. That’s how you guys roll. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/295 "2013-11-06T14:27:27Z")
Now it’s rude to discuss politics at a bar? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/296 "2013-11-06T14:36:33Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Now it’s rude to discuss politics at a bar? It’s not really a bar, in the sense the casual reader might use the phrase. No one visits the theatre in order to have drinks. It’s a place to pick up the drinks you ordered for intermission. No chairs, no stools, not an establishment for the purpose of drinking. So your question flirts with the fallacy of equivocation: Stale bread crumbs are better than nothing, when you’re hungry. Nothing is better than a thick juicy steak, when you’re hungry! Therefore stale bread crumbs are better than a thick juicy steak, when you’re hungry. The illustration makes the fallacy obvious: the word “nothing” is being used in two very different ways. In your comment, the word “bar,” is also being used in a way that’s not incorrect in a vacuum, but very misleading when applied to the situation at hand. And of course – you knew this. But it took you 20 seconds to type of that bullshit fallacy, and me a couple of minutes to clearly rebut it. That’s how liberals like to play. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/297 "2013-11-06T14:40:14Z")
> [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > Am I the only lefty who thinks that **Bricker** was justified in taking umbrage at being confronted by some blowhards who were trying to turn a night at the opera into their personal political forum? I think it’s perfectly reasonable for people to talk politics at the opera when the political discussion directly relates to the funding of the opera itself. After all, it wasn’t like they were holding an impromptu pro-choice rally in the lobby. They were discussing funding for the arts. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/298 "2013-11-06T14:45:20Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I think it’s perfectly reasonable for people to talk politics at the opera when the political discussion directly relates to the funding of the opera itself. > > After all, it wasn’t like they were holding an impromptu pro-choice rally in the lobby. They were discussing funding for the arts. And so you also believe it would have equally appropriate for me to join the discussion with my contrary view, correct? Or do you believe there was only one permissible opinion to have _about_ government funding for the arts? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/299 "2013-11-06T14:56:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And so you also believe it would have equally appropriate for me to join the discussion with my contrary view, correct? > > Or do you believe there was only one permissible opinion to have _about_ government funding for the arts? Yes, absolutely. I admit I haven’t read the entire thread, but nothing in your original post suggests that the liberals at the opera tried to stop you from expressing your contrary opinion. It sounds like they were perfectly willing to argue with you in public. It sounds like it was the disapproval of your wife that shut you down, not the liberals themselves. In which case, perhaps you should be pitting her and not them. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/300 "2013-11-06T15:06:25Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Yes, absolutely. > > I admit I haven’t read the entire thread, but nothing in your original post suggests that the liberals at the opera tried to stop you from expressing your contrary opinion. It sounds like they were perfectly willing to argue with you in public. It sounds like it was the disapproval of your wife that shut you down, not the liberals themselves. > > In which case, perhaps you should be pitting her and not them. Much of the thread also agrees with her view that a contentious political discussion was not the right thing to have during intermission. However, if your personal view is: the guy was well within the bounds of politeness to do what he did, and I also would have been well within those bounds to reply, then I have no quarrel with you. It’s not obvious he was impolite, after all; there is no authority on politeness that all are bound to respect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667.md?page=16)