# To the liberals who utterly dominate the season-ticket holding ranks for the Wash Nat Opera **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 30, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667 "2013-10-30T18:27:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/301 "2013-11-06T15:15:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course. A conservative, here, complaining about rude liberals, will of necessity be mocked. That’s how you guys roll. Maybe, but I know _you_ deserve all the mockery you can get. I was giving you the courtesy of treating you as an individual, but if you prefer otherwise, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/302 "2013-11-06T16:01:00Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Percentages are beside the point. There is a rich and healthy tradition of American opera, and to claim otherwise is plain wrong. OK, I amend the statement to say that Opera has nothing to do with national pride and the most popular operas seem to be imports. > [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Another data point, since **Bricker** was at Washington National. The remainder of their season apparently consists of an evening of three 20 minute American Operas, an American holiday opera, Moby Dick (Jake Heggie, an American), Elixir of Love (Donizetti), Magic Flute (Mozart), and An American Soldier (Huang Ruo, Chinese-American). And which of those operas do you think gets sold out first? > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > But I want to keep the Smithsonian, PBS, NPR and NASA. I agree. > [@](#): > > The public justifiably freaked when the Taliban blew up Buddhist sculptures. Yeah but that’s iconic. that would be like alqaeda blowing up the pyramids or something. > [@](#): > > Nova’s programming (PBS) covers the globe. I guess I was referring to the notion that when people talk about this stuff they are susually talking about things like Opera, orchestras and ballet (I like ballet). ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/303 "2013-11-06T17:08:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not really a bar, in the sense the casual reader might use the phrase. No one visits the theatre in order to have drinks. It’s a place to pick up the drinks you ordered for intermission. No chairs, no stools, not an establishment for the purpose of drinking. > > So your question flirts with the fallacy of equivocation: > > Stale bread crumbs are better than nothing, when you’re hungry. > > Nothing is better than a thick juicy steak, when you’re hungry! > > Therefore stale bread crumbs are better than a thick juicy steak, when you’re hungry. > > The illustration makes the fallacy obvious: the word “nothing” is being used in two very different ways. > > In your comment, the word “bar,” is also being used in a way that’s not incorrect in a vacuum, but very misleading when applied to the situation at hand. > > And of course – you knew this. But it took you 20 seconds to type of that bullshit fallacy, and me a couple of minutes to clearly rebut it. > > That’s how liberals like to play. Oh please! _MY_ quote flirts with fallacy? I will show you where my use of the term came from … > [@Bricker](#): > > …During intermission, there was a line at the bar, and several of the folks in line were talking about some apparent cuts looming in the National Capital Arts and Cultural Affairs budget that would affect the Washington National Opera. … ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/304 "2013-11-06T17:34:25Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Oh please! _MY_ quote flirts with fallacy? I will show you where my use of the term came from … Of course. But my use of the word “bar,” accurately describes the setting: not a neighborhood bar, not a place where people come to buy and nurse drinks and socialize for any of a number of reasons – rather, a bar at which drinks ordered for the opera intermission can be picked up. While your post obfuscated that context and simply said: > [@](#): > > Now it’s rude to discuss politics at a bar? That quote evokes “a bar” as precisely what this wasn’t: a neighborhood bar, a place where people come to buy and nurse drinks and socialize for various reasons. It suggests that I’m complaining about Cliff and Norm talking politics at Cheers while Carla the waitress sends various brilliant comedic quips their way. My use of the word “bar” did no such thing. Yours did. And you know that. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/305 "2013-11-06T18:13:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course. But my use of the word “bar,” accurately describes the setting: not a neighborhood bar, not a place where people come to buy and nurse drinks and socialize for any of a number of reasons – rather, a bar at which drinks ordered for the opera intermission can be picked up. > > While your post obfuscated that context and simply said: > > That quote evokes “a bar” as precisely what this wasn’t: a neighborhood bar, a place where people come to buy and nurse drinks and socialize for various reasons. It suggests that I’m complaining about Cliff and Norm talking politics at Cheers while Carla the waitress sends various brilliant comedic quips their way. > > My use of the word “bar” did no such thing. Yours did. > > And you know that. Unlike you, I’ve never been to an opera. Nor a bar in an opera. So don’t tell me what I know about opera bars and how they are different than neighborhood bars or some other kinds of bars. To me, you objected to a discussion of politics in a bar, because that’s what you said happened. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/306 "2013-11-06T18:20:24Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Unlike you, I’ve never been to an opera. Nor a bar in an opera. So don’t tell me what I know about opera bars and how they are different than neighborhood bars or some other kinds of bars. To me, you objected to a discussion of politics in a bar, because that’s what you said happened. Never been to a theater that served drinks at intermission? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/307 "2013-11-06T18:22:23Z")
Not sure. Does a flask of Mad Dog 20/20 hidden in my coat for a screening of _Debby Does Dallas_ count? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/308 "2013-11-06T18:32:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not sure. Does a flask of Mad Dog 20/20 hidden in my coat for a screening of _Debby Does Dallas_ count? Debb **ie**. Not Debby. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/309 "2013-11-06T18:44:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Debb **ie**. Not Debby. You really can’t let anything go, can you? Don’t you wish you could let things roll off your back, like other people do? Sorry, I’m disgusted because I can’t believe someone is this self-centered and this big of a martyr: > [@](#): > > A conservative, here, complaining about rude liberals, will of necessity be mocked. That’s how you guys roll. Reeeally? You honestly think that everyone here reads your nit-picky (and sometimes heartless) jabs at people and say “Ha, let’s get him! Not because he’s wrong, or because he’s missing the point, or is just an ass, but because he’s a conservative!”? Honestly? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/310 "2013-11-06T18:48:10Z")
> [@digs](#): > > You really can’t let anything go, can you? Don’t you wish you could let things roll off your back, like other people do? > Sorry, I’m disgusted because I can’t believe someone is this self-centered and this big of a martyr: > > Reeeally? You honestly think that everyone here reads your nit-picky (and sometimes heartless) jabs at people and say “Ha, let’s get him! Not because he’s wrong, or because he’s missing the point, or is just an ass, but because he’s a conservative!”? Honestly? “Everyone?” No. Many of the most vocal assholes? Yes. And when you joined a board who supposed motto was “Fighting Ignorance,” did you imagine it would be populated with people who would let errors go by without comment? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/311 "2013-11-06T18:48:59Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Unlike you, I’ve never been to an opera. Nor a bar in an opera. So don’t tell me what I know about opera bars and how they are different than neighborhood bars or some other kinds of bars. Picture a wedding reception, with all the guests dressed nicely and, usually, acting nicely too. There’s a catered buffet line, and a bar, perhaps temporary, on one side, with somebody in a (rented) tux filling champagne glasses and pouring wine. Sound familiar? Now take away the buffet line and add a cash register next to the champagne glasses. That’s the bar in an opera-house lobby. Add a few uncles who’ve had a few too many already and are perhaps a bit a-holish even when sober, with their wives trying to keep them in control, and you have the reported scene at the Kennedy Center. Which, btw, is a very nice venue, complete with outdoor promenades overlooking the city and the Potomac, and with good sightlines and good acoustics in the theatre, too. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/312 "2013-11-06T18:49:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Debb **ie**. Not Debby. Debby did Denver. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/313 "2013-11-06T19:11:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Never been to a theater that served drinks at intermission? I have no idea. I’ve been to a few Broadway shows, but I never sought out a bar at the theaters. I’ve been to dinner theaters where you sit at a table and eat, drink, and watch second-rate performaces all at the same time. I spent some time in the Kennedy Center, but I was on a crew and through some oversight we weren’t allowed to drink liquor during intermission. Really, my ignorance of the in-theater drinking habits of the opera crowd must be appalling to somone as cultured as yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/314 "2013-11-06T19:42:11Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I have no idea. I’ve been to a few Broadway shows, but I never sought out a bar at the theaters. I’ve been to dinner theaters where you sit at a table and eat, drink, and watch second-rate performaces all at the same time. I spent some time in the Kennedy Center, but I was on a crew and through some oversight we weren’t allowed to drink liquor during intermission. > > Really, my ignorance of the in-theater drinking habits of the opera crowd must be appalling to somone as cultured as yourself. Huh. Around here even the College of Theater and Little Theatre productions have drinks for sale during the intermission. I just always assumed it was universal. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/315 "2013-11-06T20:06:08Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Huh. Around here even the College of Theater and Little Theatre productions have drinks for sale during the intermission. I just always assumed it was universal. Maybe it is. At intermissions I might stand and stretch, or maybe hit the bathroom if bladder tells me to, but otherwise I stay where I am. I don’t like crowds, and in my youth most of those folks would be heading out for a smoke anyway, which I didn’t want to join in on. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/316 "2013-11-06T22:33:38Z")
So they have drinks. Do they also sell opera dogs? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/317 "2013-11-06T22:46:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Debb **ie**. Not Debby. I defer to your expertise in such matters. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/318 "2013-11-06T23:15:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Considering the relatively low cost, time- and emotional-investment-wise, of starting a thread, that seems to be the least dramatic of the actions I took. > > Does “starting a Pit thread,” really support a charge of “taking it too far?” What part of “That’s part of it” don’t you understand? ETA: This is kind of fun. It’s rare to be able to out-pedant the king-hell pedant of the board. ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/319 "2013-11-07T02:14:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > (1) Yes, I am a conservative. > > (2) Yes, I love opera and have season tickets. > > (3) No, I am not a traitor to point (2) by virtue of being (1). Nor am I hostile to opera by believing that opera should pay its own way instead of subsisting on government largess. > > Nor am I hypocritical in seeing opera that benefits from government grants. > > Frankly, I don’t seek out political discourse at the opera. I’m there to watch an opera I have never seen before. (Verdi’s _La forza del destino_, if anyone cares.) It’s unusual for get an opera I’ve never seen staged at this level. > > But the sheer smug certainty that everyone around you shares your views, because they are so self-evidently correct as to be unchallengeable, reminded me of this place. > > Those fuckers spoiled my opera night. Oh, fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/320 "2013-11-07T03:12:10Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > ETA: This is kind of fun. It’s rare to be able to out-pedant the king-hell pedant of the board. If “king-hell pedant” is a title, shouldn’t it be capitalized? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667.md?page=17)