# To the liberals who utterly dominate the season-ticket holding ranks for the Wash Nat Opera **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 30, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667 "2013-10-30T18:27:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/121 "2013-10-31T10:05:54Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I disagree with Bricker > .) Regarding the general butt-hurtedness in the OP, > > .) About his presumptions about the conservative position. Modern conservatives trend towards libertarianism, but traditional conservatives liked elitist institutions, of which the opera was one. > > .) That he handled the situation well. If you are with a bunch of people with a different ideology, it’s better to get _calmer_ and _more laid back_. Jokes often work. > > .) Also, the massive subsidies and spending on sports (considered separately) are noteworthy. > I agree with Bricker: > .) About him not being hypocritical in this instance. > > .) That the opera could survive without governmental funding. > Though they wouldn’t survive via higher ticket prices, but rather through tax deductible contributions, an indirect and less visible sort of government largesse. New York City just lost their 2nd opera company. There’s no way they would lose their top tier one. Naturally, I suspect the total supply of opera would shrink in the US, though not to anywhere near zero. > > Also, that’s what Bricker could wisecrack about: “Yeah, without the governmental trough, they’d just have to depend on us poor subscription holders! A tragic shame isn’t it!” > > Bricker has not stated his opinion but: > > .) Local subsidies for opera might be sensible on a business improvement basis. People going to the opera sometimes book a hotel, go shopping, etc. I agree with both your agreements and disagreements, although not _all_ opera companies could survive without government funding. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > I think the important point that’s missed here is that you went to the opera?! They have movies now, with special effects and scenery changes that doesn’t require curtains closing or a stupid intermission and forgotten lines :dubious: Oddly enough, one of the ways that some of the big opera houses (the Met and Covent Garden, certainly) make additional money is by doing live theatrical showings of their operas. An opera house, big though it is, can only hold so many people. So they hire out local cinemas to show the opera performances, which not only increases their audience and revenues but also makes the opera more accessible geographically - you can live a thousand miles away and still watch the opera. The showings I’ve seen in London have run about £30 per ticket - obviously a lot more than an actual movie, but a lot cheaper than being in the hall itself. > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > On the subject of public funding of opera companies, I kind of agree with **Bricker**. Even if I were in favor of public arts funding (and I don’t really care that much about it – it’s fine when the budget permits, but there are a _lot_ of things that should have higher priority), it seems to me that opera appeals to such a tiny minority of the public (and that minority is largely, although not entirely, a well-heeled minority) that it seems that public funding of opera is a trickle-up proposition, and that’s something I don’t like very much. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > ETA: I think **Measure for Measure** ’s mention of the Smithsonian is an interesting point. I don’t care if the US has a showcase for culture, but I value the Smithsonian as an educational institution. I don’t think opera or orchestras or theaters are educational, per se. I’m not up to speed on the current state of US arts funding but UK arts funding almost always comes with a requirement to provide educational programs or other social services (one local theatre in a deprived area had a successful program using acting craft to help teenagers with anger management issues). I do agree that funding opera may not be the best use of government arts money, given that it could fund several smaller projects for the same amount, but I like opera and want it to continue so I’m not really complaining that it gets some funding. > [@Rotten Sumbitch](#): > > Two words: Pledge Week. > > Like, stop the opera right before Tosca gets all stabby, and get Terry Gross to come out and whine for money. Set a goal, announce names of generous contributors, give out tote bags, build enthusiasm as you get! closer! to your! GOOOOAAAL! “Ladies and gentlemen, before we get to Act 3 we’d like to encourage you to continue to support the kind of high quality performances you’d heard here tonight. By which I mean: if you don’t cough up ten grand in the next fifteen minutes, we’ll replace Samuel Ramey as Scarpia with Sanjaya from _American Idol_. So get those checkbooks out and pens moving, or the opera _gets it_.” ---
**Author:** ![sylmar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@sylmar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sylmar)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/122 "2013-10-31T10:33:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Absolutely absurd. > > What path do I take to show I like opera, and am willing to pay not only the current price, but a hike as well, so that the show could be seen without government funding necessary? > > And seriously – learn the definition of the words you use. Whore house? You can expound on it further if you find my usage not in keeping with your perceived “definition”. In the meantime, keep stuffing your face with that cake you find so reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/123 "2013-10-31T11:01:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t believe the government funded one penny of “Wicked,” or “Avenue Q.” People invested in those shows, and they found an audience willing to pay to see them. The government should not be in the business of saying, in effect, “People don’t like opera, but they SHOULD,” so we’ll pay the producers to produce it. > > And I say this as someone who loves opera. I have been a season ticket holder for years. Before I was married, I was a season ticket holder here and in Baltimore. Sometimes I conduct the Bell Chorus from Pagliacci while stuck in traffic, and I suspect the people in nearby cars think I’m having a seizure. My comments don’t come from a distaste for opera – they come from a distaste of making other people pay for my entertainment. Funny, people look at me that way when I’m being Neil Peart on drums in my car. But what’s a commute for other than indulging in fantasies? To a certain extent, I feel your pain. With 10+ years in appalachia and another three here in ruby red South Carolina I don’t often fit in politically. Still, all that’s to do is to smile and nod. Public confrontation is rude and letting some pontificator spoil your evening just gives others power over you that they shouldn’t have. While I find the SDMB is about argument and debate I often find such is counterproductive in the real world. You never change anyone’s opinion and just get people all worked up. Think of it as a being akin to the old maxim that one doesn’t win elections by converting the other guy’s voters because you won’t. You win elections by getting your guy’s supporters to the polls. On the other hand, your larger point has some holes in it. Or at least it’s a ship that’s sailed. It’s quite possible that Wicked and such should receive no government support. On that I’d have to say it’s more complicated that you paint it. But many, MANY for-profit enterprises receive government support. Sometimes it’s for the development of new technologies and so forth. But sometimes the support is just there to enable them to make a greater profit or to get new ventures off the ground. The usual justification for such (disclaimer: one of my enterprises once received a State of Ohio grant of $60K to develop a piece of software as a start up.) is that doing so promotes jobs and furthers the greater good by providing taxable income for state, county and town coffers. Hell, one of my favorites is the extra work my city once did to encourage a Wal-Mart to locate there. Not only did the city get grants from the state (lobby, lobby, lobby) to rebuild a set of roads to make it easier for shoppers to get in or out, but they also passed a sales tax waiver that allowed that store to collect sales tax but not have to pass it along to the state for a period of 10 years. So for those years, the store made an extra 5% or so on each taxable purchase. So the idea of using public money to support for-profit enterprises is one that’s well-established. The only thing to argue about is which and where. And that’s more a matter of opinion and taste than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/124 "2013-10-31T11:59:48Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Bricker is 100% animbiguously right, and anyone who disagrees with him is wrong. > > Monopoly is WAY better without money on Free Parking. Hell yes. No government subsidies in Monopoly! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/125 "2013-10-31T12:25:42Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > He’s under no obligation to boycott the opera until it does refuse government funding. Morally, he is, IMO, under such an obligation. Although “obligation” is a little strong. But he’d be morally a better man if he didn’t attend things that he objected to the funding structure of. I agree with him, however, that “hypocrisy” isn’t _quite_ the right word to use for the moral failing exhibited. More like “have your cake and eat it” ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/126 "2013-10-31T12:53:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What path do I take to show I like opera, and am willing to pay not only the current price, but a hike as well, so that the show could be seen without government funding necessary? The one leading to the “donations” box. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/127 "2013-10-31T13:30:39Z")
I’m a white male physician living in the stickiest of the sticks of Kentucky. It’s an article of faith around here that every bad thing that has ever happened is the fault of Barack Obama, and “Coal: The Real Black Power” is a not-uncommon bumper sticker. So that feeling you get at the opera? That’s the feeling I get every time I leave my house. Heck, at least a couple of times a year someone comes out with some serious, old-school, n-word racism in my presence and is surprised when I don’t agree. Then I’ll actually say something. If someone is factually incorrect in a way that I think I might be able to correct, I do so. Otherwise I just keep my mouth shut. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/128 "2013-10-31T13:33:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, I said “spoiled.” The entire time Leonora is musically dying from her knife wound, I’m stewing over what I would have/should have said to the smug asshole. > > I admit that my own wound, described here, is largely self-inflicted. It _does_ suck to be a Bricker. Although to be fair and balanced, most of us here could have an evening ruined by our “Us vs Them” mentality. Let this be a lesson to any of us here who assume that everyone is against them, or make judgements about others’ politics. My parents think Reagan was a pinko (seriously – my mom was a “Goldwater Girl” in a cowgirl outfit). They’ll rage against school lunches for poor kids (“Creeping Communism!”), but they’d be the ones loudly advocating for funding their opera and museum shows. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/129 "2013-10-31T13:48:37Z")
I’m a conservative and I support public funding for the arts, in fact I’d be happy with us doubling it. I think that’d still make it pretty small, isn’t it only like $150m a year? There is a question I’d pose for other conservatives, “If this is something people like King Frederick the Great or Louis XIV did can we really say that it’s some sort of liberal largesse?” All this talk of small government and fiscal austerity is trouble to me. I do believe in _more efficient government_, but I also believe in a traditional view of government that dates back thousands of years and is a bedrock of what I consider to be conservatism. Much of conservatism is centered on traditions and not lightly changing things long done. At least it was when I first labeled myself a conservative. It seems in recent years conservatism has become synonymous with libertarian populism mixed in with religious fundamentalism. Like all populism, this brand of populism is a terrible thing. Great nations spend many on art, it shouldn’t absorb the budget or anything, but that pomp/prestige etc associated with great works of art makes a nation look stronger, greater, more prestigious etc and such spending should be as core to conservative thought as a desire to maintain a strong military. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/130 "2013-10-31T13:49:06Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Just to put some numbers on it (and since we’re talking specifically about Washington National, here are their funding sources from 2011: > > Revenue: > > Contributions $19,021,530 > Government Grants $1,214,151 > Program Services $14,354,627 > Investments ($533,350) > Special Events ($737,353) > Sales $4,025 > Other $0 > Total Revenue $33,323,630 > > So $1.2 million out of $33 million. About 3.6%. Interesting. With those numbers you could equally say it’s a tiny amount of money and we should keep spending it, or that it’s a tiny amount of money and they can do without it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/131 "2013-10-31T13:53:55Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’m a conservative and I support public funding for the arts, in fact I’d be happy with us doubling it. I think that’d still make it pretty small, isn’t it only like $150m a year? [Less this year](http://arts.gov/open-government/nea-budget-planning-information/national-endowment-arts-appropriations-history), thanks to sequestration. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/132 "2013-10-31T14:03:50Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > The one leading to the “donations” box. And I do take that: in addition to buying season tickets (as opposed to individual tickets for just the shows I’m excited about, which would be cheaper for me), I contribute yearly as a benefactor. I believe I should pay for the stuff I like; I don’t think you should have to pay so I can go to the opera. I’d much rather we make a deal: I won’t pay for “The Return of the Chocolate-smeared Woman,” and you don’t pay for _La Traviata_. OK? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/133 "2013-10-31T14:07:59Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Great nations spend many on art, it shouldn’t absorb the budget or anything, but that pomp/prestige etc associated with great works of art makes a nation look stronger, greater, more prestigious etc and such spending should be as core to conservative thought as a desire to maintain a strong military. If sane minds ruled the process of giving grants to art, in the model of the patronage of olden days, I might see the value. But here’s the rub: on what principled, neutral basis can you say that Puccini and Verdi are artists that deserve money but Andres Serrano or Karen Finely are not? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/134 "2013-10-31T14:11:54Z")
Here’s once in a while where I agree with Bricker, at least in part (not on arts funding - dead wrong there IMO). But It burns me to no end when people assume that present company are all in agreement on politics, religion, etc, and hold forth with a fierceness they’d never do in mixed company, never anticipating someone might not nod their head in agreement. It feels really awkward, and makes you feel like an obnoxious asshole for just even saying “I don’t agree.” Or hell, not even in a group, it only takes one person. Always assume mixed company and behave accordingly unless you have reason to expect otherwise. In my case, my dentist and 2 dental assistants had themselves a little Tea Party tent revival while hovering over me and my mouthful of hoses and instruments, just chattering and occasionally asking me “Isn’t that right?” Fortunately I don’t have season tickets to the dentist, so I’ll be changing soon. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/135 "2013-10-31T14:16:33Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I say that without knowing the opera’s pricing structure. If tickets to the opera are always priced out of the range of poor folk, I have a lot less interest in funding it. I think there are SRO tickets for $25. But for actual seating, I believe ticket prices start in the $50-$75 range. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/136 "2013-10-31T14:26:15Z")
You were in the bar when this happened. Was this bar restricted to season ticket holders? Can you get season tickets to NASCAR? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/137 "2013-10-31T14:29:17Z")
> [@sylmar](#): > > Wondered away? Tried to sarcastically highlight that without the government help, there would be no opera for you to attend and complain about the funding for. > > But since you missed that boat, lets take a sabbatical on the sarcasm and go with a more elementary example. > > Let’s say you find prostitution and it’s exploitation of the socially vulnerable morally offensive. > > And yet you still patronize the local whore house, all the while bleating that you still find it morally objectionable but you’re there because you enjoy sex. > > Easy solution to not seeming like a hypocrite? If you find something morally objectionable, don’t fucking (figuratively) partake and complain about it afterwards (Or during) Brick. The difference is I don’t find government funding morally offensive. I just think it’s unwise social policy. If I found it morally offensive, I agree that staying away would be correct. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/138 "2013-10-31T14:32:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > **Bricker** , did it ever occur to you that by horning in on a conversation that was not addressed to you, with a provocative, contrarian point of view, you spoiled the opera evening of every one else? No, that did not occur to me, as it’s untrue. The exhortation to contact Congress was addressed to everyone in line. I was in line. Under what theory was it not addressed to me? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/139 "2013-10-31T14:35:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Just to rehash the offense, is it that people were talking politics in an inappropriate place; or just that your opinion was in the minority? Well…both. The offense was the public exhortation that included the assumption I agreed with the political statement, without the opportunity to rebut and still remain polite. If my opinion had not been different, I’d have felt no need to rebut. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667/140 "2013-10-31T14:42:17Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What are you doing at the Opera? Don’t you know there is a baseball game going on? > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAL-\_fjrT3I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAL-_fjrT3I) > (The Marx’s Brothers, A Night at the Opera, -the baseball scene) > > Right now: Boston Red Socks up 6-1 Top of the 7th This fracas happened the night of game 3. I was torn, but not all that much. No matter what happened, the Series wouldn’t be over, and although I’ve seen a LOT of opera in my life, and I had never before seen a staging of _La forza del destino_. Truth is, I’m only a casual baseball fan anyway, and it’s not like the Nats were in the picture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-liberals-who-utterly-dominate-the-season-ticket-holding-ranks-for-the-wash-nat-opera/672667.md?page=8)