# To: The NYC mob of "planned civil disobedience" FUCK YOU **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 27, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545 "2003-03-27T15:56:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/161 "2003-04-01T14:07:54Z")
I would like to point out what I believe is a bit of irony in this situation. In the war in Iraq, the U.S. and its allies are using precision-guided munitions in an effort to minimize the loss of civilian life. In marketing, this would be known as the “rifle” approach. In the U.S. and elsewhere, protestors are attempting to disrupt and inconvenience the lives of as many average civilians as possible, in an attempt to draw attention to the aforementioned war. In marketing, this would be known as the “shotgun” approach. I find the incongruity interesting. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/162 "2003-04-01T16:59:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ace of Swords \* > \*\*And also why we have the Constitution and the venerated checks and balances. Seen any checks and balances, lately? > > We elect them to represent us – not to post hoc define legality until our constitutional rights are available to us on alternate Tuesdays in July. > > We have branches of government to prevent a singular branch from refusing to represent us, lying to us in about the need for war, and enmeshing us unilaterally in a cauldron of Arabic hate. > > Doesn’t that bother you a little? That our representatives have stopped representing us? > > And in that context, with these out-of-control motherfuckers in charge, doesn’t it bother you in the least that our constitutional rights are now withdrawable by these guys for no discernable reason? They’re fucking CONSTITUTIONAL rights! That’s what we’re fighting for in Iraq, and we can’t find a way to uphold them at home? > > **Ms. Robyn** : Huh? The governments been doing everything legally possible and many things not to supress and minimize the demonstrators. If you think that they would exercise gentlemanly restraint from disgusting abuses of power in order to further their ideological beliefs, it is you who live in a fantasy world. They, the Bush administration even wrote a Friend of the Court brief to convince the judge that this “Focus Group” represented a security thread to the U.N., as if they weren’t all for blowing it up in any event. > > The administration has a track record of lies, deceit, and abuse of power. To these forgers and confidence men you would the fuse box to our constitutional rights and whistle in the dark? > > No. It’s clear they aren’t making March decisions based on any of the rationale that your provide, but merely political supression’s new catchphrase: _“heightened safety concerns.”_ \*\* So get the fuck out of sitting in an intersection. Write your congressman, raise awareness in _effective_ ways(i.e. don’t piss the people you are trying to educate off), and vote. You do vote don’t you? \*\*Sauron/b] buddy, stop messing with my brain. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/163 "2003-04-01T17:29:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > So get the fuck out of sitting in an intersection. Write your congressman, raise awareness in _effective_ ways Amazingly enough, I’m a multi-tasking protestor; I generally schedule 9-12 for letter writing, and 1-5 for Anarchy Riots, with 5-7 for Mobster Riots (since the two groups don’t get along much.) I guess my other methods haven’t gotten through your thick awareness, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Avumede](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/avumede/32/7235_2.png) [@Avumede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avumede)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/164 "2003-04-01T17:58:30Z")
> [@](#): > > I would like to point out what I believe is a bit of irony in this situation. > > In the war in Iraq, the U.S. and its allies are using precision-guided munitions in an effort to minimize the loss of civilian life. In marketing, this would be known as the “rifle” approach. > > In the U.S. and elsewhere, protestors are attempting to disrupt and inconvenience the lives of as many average civilians as possible, in an attempt to draw attention to the aforementioned war. In marketing, this would be known as the “shotgun” approach. > > I find the incongruity interesting. Interesting. I would say the irony goes in the opposite direction. I mean, would you rather be in New York amidst the protests, or Baghdad amidst the bombings? The “shotgun” versus “rifle” approach is invalid, since the protesters are not trying to kill anyone. Trust me, all of Baghdad, even the parts not getting bombed, are inconvenienced much more so than New York. I find it ironic that pro-war people are angry at relatively minor inconveniences designed to advance the cause of peace, but not angry at major hardships and significant “collateral damage” that are necessary to advance Bush’s war. But I guess things like this are wrong only when they happen to you, huh? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/165 "2003-04-01T18:03:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MsRobyn \* > First of all, I’d like a cite for the Bush administration’s amicus brief. It would be especially welcome if you linked to a copy of the brief. [Sure](http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn02122003.html), I guess you didn’t hear about the brief? Funny about that. Perhaps one of the lawyers here could get you a copy off of Findlaw. > [@](#): > > Second, what about the precepts of life, liberty, and property? A bunch of “demonstrators” in the streets tends to deprive citizens of these. Property? What about justice? I hope we haven’t yet traded fairness for a nice shiny new Explorer, I hope. > [@](#): > > Frankly, all I’ve seen you do is wrap yourself in the Constitution while you rationalize and justify a group of mobsters intent on disrupting a busy city. Good gravy! In other words, I had the temerity to base the reasons for protests on rock-solid Constitutional rights? Quick, let me be like the president and wrap myself in the _Flag_ and present _no_ logical reason for my actions!! That’ll win 'em over for sure!! Really – what sort of rationale were you expecting from this thread? **"I likes my ultra-violence, and Starbucks sucks, man?"** Sorry I couldn’t provide. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/166 "2003-04-01T18:09:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ace of Swords \* > \*\*Amazingly enough, I’m a multi-tasking protestor; I generally schedule 9-12 for letter writing, and 1-5 for Anarchy Riots, with 5-7 for Mobster Riots (since the two groups don’t get along much.) > > I guess my other methods haven’t gotten through your thick awareness, eh? \*\* You didn’t answer my question. Do you vote? ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/167 "2003-04-01T18:32:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avumede \* > Interesting. I would say the irony goes in the opposite direction. I mean, would you rather be in New York amidst the protests, or Baghdad amidst the bombings? The “shotgun” versus “rifle” approach is invalid, since the protesters are not trying to kill anyone. Trust me, all of Baghdad, even the parts not getting bombed, are inconvenienced much more so than New York. > > I find it ironic that pro-war people are angry at relatively minor inconveniences designed to advance the cause of peace, but not angry at major hardships and significant “collateral damage” that are necessary to advance Bush’s war. But I guess things like this are wrong only when they happen to you, huh? Two things: One, since the protests are a direct result of the war, I find the tactics of the protestors the source of the irony. Two, do not presume to know my opinion on the war. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/168 "2003-04-01T18:32:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ace of Swords \* > \*\*Good gravy! In other words, I had the temerity to base the reasons for protests on rock-solid Constitutional rights? > Sorry I couldn’t provide. \*\* I’m still waiting for these rock-solid Constitutional rights you think you have. All I’ve gotten is “Well, I feel like I should be able to do whatever I want”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/169 "2003-04-01T18:33:10Z")
**Ace** , what exactly is your point about not getting a permit for the anti-war demonstration? Did you even read the court’s opinion? Do you disagree with it? Or is it easier to spew rhetoric about losing your right to free speech to time, place, and manner regulations, than deal with the fact you while you have the right to free speech, you don’t have the right to disrupt the runnings of a city of millions? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/170 "2003-04-01T18:38:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*You didn’t answer my question. Do you vote? \*\* I didn’t anwer it, as it was assuredly a Rhetorical Flourish, and the thread concerns the activities of the civilly disobedient protestors and their possible rationale, not my personal proclivities. So if you want to know what I think the percentage of protestors is that vote, ask that. If you want to know whether I vote, whether I’ve been arrested, or my methods of High Mobster Anarchy, e-mail me. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/171 "2003-04-01T18:45:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avumede \* > \*\*Interesting. I would say the irony goes in the opposite direction. I mean, would you rather be in New York amidst the protests, or Baghdad amidst the bombings? \*\* :rolleyes: \*\* > [@](#): > > The “shotgun” versus “rifle” approach is invalid, since the protesters are not trying to kill anyone. \*\* Coalition forces are not targeting civilians, provide proof or shut up, it’s that simple. \*\* > [@](#): > > I find it ironic that pro-war people are angry at relatively minor inconveniences designed to advance the cause of peace, \*\* I can’t speak for all pro-war people but I’ll speak for myself here. There are many reasons that this war is unjust and possibly unnecessary at the point in time. I could make a list of 100 reasons we should have done it, and 100 against. I am frustrated against a small percentage of the anti-war people, because they seem to be giving a black eye to the rest of the movement. Violent protests, defacing property, throwing stones at National Guard soldiers (wtf???) etc, is not going to help anything, and they simply need to realize this. Protesters (the ones we are pissed about) have never mentioned some of the possible benefits, they have never taken the time to try and look at the other point of view, or at least acknowledged some of the possible reasoning behind some of the decisions made. What bothers me the most is that these people stick their fingers in their ears and yell as loud as they can. I have the utmost respect for a person that will act on convictions to effect change, but only if done in a lawful respectful manner. This war is not 100% I’m right, %100 you’re wrong no matter what perspective you use. That little disclaimer said:p, I am for this war, but like many people, have a great many problems with it. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/172 "2003-04-01T18:55:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ace of Swords \* > \*\*I didn’t anwer it, as it was assuredly a Rhetorical Flourish, and the thread concerns the activities of the civilly disobedient protestors and their possible rationale, not my personal proclivities. > > So if you want to know what I think the percentage of protestors is that vote, ask that. > > If you want to know whether I vote, whether I’ve been arrested, or my methods of High Mobster Anarchy, e-mail me. \*\* Ah yes, a semi-creative dodge to a simple yes or no question. Not that I think one needs to be active in every level of community involvment to have the right to complain about ‘the system’, but forgive me if I have a tad more admiration for them. I bet less then %50 of the protesters voted in any election, which I find depresssing. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/173 "2003-04-01T18:58:31Z")
Excuse my use of the percentage sign today. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/174 "2003-04-01T19:06:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hamlet \* > \*\ ***Ace** , what exactly is your point about not getting a permit for the anti-war demonstration? Did you even read the court’s opinion? Do you disagree with it? Or is it easier to spew rhetoric about losing your right to free speech to time, place, and manner regulations, than deal with the fact you while you have the right to free speech, you don’t have the right to disrupt the runnings of a city of millions? \*\* Yes, I still beat my wife, thanks for asking, ol’ friend. Here’s something for the serious to chew on, in regards to the permit system being a tool of political supression. It’s [from the NY Civil Liberties Union](http://www.nyclu.org/citypolicies_stifle_021903.html): (Warning, contains more Constitutional Rationale) > [@](#): > > Through the process of the litigation we learned, from the sworn testimony of a police department official, that the police department has had a practice of not providing permits for political demonstrations involving more than one thousand people. Is this a matter of the public safety or the suppression of dissent? > > We also learned that a new police department regulation bans all “new demonstrations” down Fifth Avenue. The large, raucous traditional parades, known for rowdiness and violence, will continue to receive a permit. The less well affiliated – proponents of peace or civil rights, perhaps – will have to take their speech elsewhere. Is this a sign of respect for tradition, or a new zero-tolerance policy toward speech the mayor or police commissioner find unacceptable? > > The fact is, the police department has become increasingly hostile toward what constitutes permissible speech and expression – not only toward demonstrators – but toward the law the police are sworn to serve; toward the great body of First Amendment jurisprudence that gives broad protections to the right of speech and expression. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/175 "2003-04-01T19:13:01Z")
Well **Ace** you seem to be dodging more then Apollo Creed today. Do you think lying in the street and tying up traffic is a valid form of protest? Yes or no, then by all means, embelish. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/176 "2003-04-01T19:20:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*Ah yes, a semi-creative dodge to a simple yes or no question. > > Not that I think one needs to be active in every level of community involvment to have the right to complain about ‘the system’, but forgive me if I have a tad more admiration for them. > > I bet less then %50 of the protesters voted in any election, which I find depresssing. \*\* :smack: The whole fucking United States nation voted at 50%. And your number for the protesters is about 30% too low. Now go be seriously depressed. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/177 "2003-04-01T19:21:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ace of Swords \* > \*\*[Sure](http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn02122003.html), I guess you didn’t hear about the brief? Funny about that. > > Perhaps one of the lawyers here could get you a copy off of Findlaw. Property? What about justice? I hope we haven’t yet traded fairness for a nice shiny new Explorer, I hope. > Good gravy! In other words, I had the temerity to base the reasons for protests on rock-solid Constitutional rights? Quick, let me be like the president and wrap myself in the _Flag_ and present _no_ logical reason for my actions!! That’ll win 'em over for sure!! > > Really – what sort of rationale were you expecting from this thread? **"I likes my ultra-violence, and Starbucks sucks, man?"** > > Sorry I couldn’t provide. 😛 \*\* Guess what, Sparky. The Constitution, and especially the First Amendment, aren’t absolute rights. You can’t call “Fire” in a crowded theatre, and the city (which is paying the bills for your little wingding, BTW) has the right to restrict demonstrations to the appropriate times and places, mainly so they can provide city services. I may be blind, but when I read Cockburn’s piece in your link, I couldn’t find any mention of the government saying that this group represents a security risk. That Bush and Ashcroft got involved means nothing without seeing the actual brief that the government filed. And, since **you** brought up this brief, **you** get to provide the link to it. It’s not my job to prove you right. Robin ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/178 "2003-04-01T19:29:38Z")
80% of the protesters voted? Sounds a bit high to me, I can’t prove it and neither can you. Let’s get back the OP. Do you think lying in the street and tying up traffic is a valid form of protest? I say no. Quid pro quo Clarice. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/179 "2003-04-01T19:47:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MsRobyn \* > I may be blind, but when I read Cockburn’s piece in your link, I couldn’t find any mention of the government saying that this group represents a security risk. Did you read the NYCLU peice? It is, to my eyes, a quite damning cite, and it answers your questions about the tradeoffs between rights and their costs as best I am able, not being a lawyer an all. I’m quite comfortable with the quality of my cites and argument, and I haven’t seen more than opinion, hyperbole, and rhetorical devices to oppose them. Am I now do to Herculean legal research to disprove an opinion? What next, the Philosopher’s Stone? At this point, if you find an argument or cite you find flawed, please let me know; If you are merely unconvinced or unimpressed, let’s agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-nyc-mob-of-planned-civil-disobedience-fuck-you/164545/180 "2003-04-01T19:50:50Z")
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