# To the Pastor at the Funeral I Attended Yesterday **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 9, 2006, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951 "2006-04-09T12:37:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/41 "2006-04-10T02:24:16Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > \ Can anyone offer a concise history of **how** open casket services became the norm in the US? And why? > > And what steps can one do to end this abomination? As Qagdop mentioned there’s the closure aspect. If you want something really icky, I’ve been to several funerals (especially rural black people) where everybody kisses or at least touches the body as a token of respect and in part due to a superstition that the person will not haunt whoever touches it. One of the more disturbing things I’ve ever seen at a funeral was a little girl (elementary school age) who was having fits because her grandmother and mother and aunts were trying to force her to touch the old dead man in the coffin. At most of the funerals I’ve been to there was an open casket visitation but the casket was closed directly prior to the entry of the family and the funeral itself. The funeral usually lasted from 30 minutes to an hour and then there was a graveside service whose lengthiness depended largely on the weather (you’ll be surprised how quickly you can wrap up somebody’s contributions in their life when there’s a 105 degree heat index and people are wearing black suits). Re: the photographs of the dead (one of which added atmosphere in _The Others_, you’ll remember) Queen Victoria had a borderline obsession with dead books. At Osborne House when she died they found photographs of dead bodies of people who’s funeral she had never gone to and who she barely knew. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/42 "2006-04-10T02:41:32Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > It’s the same way here in Iowa. With one exception, all the funerals I’ve been to have been treated as Come to Jesus opportunities by the ministers. No just funerals. The minister at the wedding of my fundamentalist step-nephew decided it was appropriate to tell his Jewish relatives that we had better come to Jesus or else. If I had any expectation that a similar outrage might happen at my funeral, I’d put a hitman on retainer. The first mention of Jesus and _pow_ - two for the price of one. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/43 "2006-04-10T02:54:07Z")
In many pockets of population in the states of Michigan, Iowa, and Wisconsin, one finds the lands of the Calvinists, the Hyper-Calvinists, the Dominionists, and the Christian Reconstructionists. Ah, the faith of my forebears! ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/44 "2006-04-10T03:37:58Z")
> [@swampbear](#): > > Have I mentioned lately how much I like being an Episcopalian? That just will not happen at an Episcopal funeral. The _Book of Common Prayer_ prescribes what the funeral shall be…As a matter of fact, I have on file, my funeral service. It states (within the convines of the \*_BCOP_ prescribed order, of course) the scriptures to be read, the hymns to be sung, the Eucharistic Prayer to be used and the whole shebang. Another Episcopalian checking in here. I also have my funeral plans on file at the church I attend. There’s a drawer full of them. When I brought mine in the dean told me “I wish more people would do this.” I did this because I’m the only Episcopalian in the family, although it won’t be too different than if I’d remained a Lutheran. Since a funeral is a worship service there is the place for a homily, but I’ve instructed there be no eulogy. And the casket(if I’m not cremated) is to be closed from the moment I’m plopped in. The only thing that might cause a wee bit of discomfort to any of my Lutheran relatives who attend will be the Eucharist. They don’t believe in sharing Communion with anyone not of their own church, whereas at mine the congregation is told that all baptized Christians are welcome to commune, as this is not the Episcopalian’s table, but God’s. I want a sedate, by the Book of Common Prayer funeral. The only thing noisy may be the organ beforehand, as I don’t want the slow, mournful music, but the more vibrant, Easter style. You know, the kind where the organist is pulling on the stops, and using their feet on the pedals, concert style. I guess I’m lucky, I’ve never been to a fire and brimstone funeral like some of the ones I’ve heard described here. Ugh. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/45 "2006-04-10T04:19:25Z")
And this is why, people, one should plan ahead and make sure you leave specific instructions for your own funeral. Funerals often bring out the worst in people, and it’s probably NOT a time when you want to be dealing with making important decisions. Of course, you could always have some people who WANT the fire and brimstone at their own funerals. I’ve heard some people say, “I want the WORD preached so everyone gets saved before it’s too late!” ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/46 "2006-04-10T06:50:37Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > As Qagdop mentioned there’s the closure aspect. If you want something really icky, I’ve been to several funerals (especially rural black people) where everybody kisses or at least touches the body as a token of respect and in part due to a superstition that the person will not haunt whoever touches it. One of the more disturbing things I’ve ever seen at a funeral was a little girl (elementary school age) who was having fits because her grandmother and mother and aunts were trying to force her to touch the old dead man in the coffin. That’s a pretty standard part of an Italian Catholic funeral too. I honestly can’t imagine going to the funeral of a family member and NOT touching the body. And I can’t say any of the funerals I’ve been to featured the “Get right with God!” theme, but I guess it was there a little. Personally, I was more amazed that the priest transformed my father (who had been to church exactly three times in the last ten years) into the holiest man in the room. His Sunday was spent building something in the basement and I believe he was closer to God than any of the people that surrounded me, my sister and my mother at church. ---
**Author:** ![Madd\_Maxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Madd\_Maxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madd_Maxx)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/47 "2006-04-10T11:39:22Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > In many pockets of population in the states of Michigan, Iowa, and Wisconsin, one finds the lands of the Calvinists, the Hyper-Calvinists, the Dominionists, and the Christian Reconstructionists. Ah, the faith of my forebears! Forebears? Fur bearers? Furry Bears? 😃 All I know is that my funeral will involve fire. Cleansing fire. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/48 "2006-04-10T11:43:04Z")
> [@Madd Maxx](#): > > Forebears? Fur bearers? Furry Bears? 😃 > > All I know is that my funeral will involve fire. Cleansing fire. Isn’t setting the church ablaze just a _little_ bit over the top? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/49 "2006-04-10T13:46:53Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > As Qagdop mentioned there’s the closure aspect. If you want something really icky, I’ve been to several funerals (especially rural black people) where everybody kisses or at least touches the body as a token of respect and in part due to a superstition that the person will not haunt whoever touches it. One of the more disturbing things I’ve ever seen at a funeral was a little girl (elementary school age) who was having fits because her grandmother and mother and aunts were trying to force her to touch the old dead man in the coffin… . First funeral I ever went to was my great-grandmother (also one of two memories I have of her). I was very young a didn’t quite understand that she was dead. My mother brought me to the casket and insisted I kiss her good bye. All I remember is that she felt cold and empty ☹ . I had nightmares after that. To this day I find funerals and morbid and creepy. I prefer to remember someone alive, not dead in a tin box covered in paint! Even worse since I watched an HBO documentary on mortury science I get mental images of the prep work they do on corpses (not a pleasant thing to imagine for your grandmother :eek: )! Personally I’m happy with being carved up for spare parts and having the leftovers tossed in the nearest incinerator. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/50 "2006-04-10T14:05:45Z")
**Sampiro** --I have had the same thoughts as your mother, just not spoken them aloud! Thanks for the laugh. I ahve been to too many funerals at this point. They seem to be a mixed bad, IMO. I think I am fortunate to see mostly more conservative (in terms of emoting) services. Most of the Catholic and generic community church funerals here have been staid, solemn and respectful of grief. Jesus is presented as a comforting figure, not a righteous soldier of God (and thank God for that). But. I have been to two funerals that were so horrible (to me) that they stand out in my mind. One was my husband’s cousin’s. She was only in her late 30’s when she died–she had been chronically ill for her whole life. She was almost everything to her mother–and yet the priest managed to get not only the deceased’s name wrong, but her mother’s as well (!). Christ on a cracker–her name was Cheryl and her mother’s name was Norlene. These are not difficult names to say. He blathered on about God’s love and the everlasting joy of heaven–shallow, sentimental garbage that comforts no-one (or at least not me). ( Also, Cheryl’s first husband was NOT invited to the service–I thought that was terrible. He wasn’t even informed that she was dead. That’s creepy to me, but hardly the priest’s responsibility. ) Anyway, the other bad funeral was more about the attendees than the service. There was an open casket in the narthex-it was to be moved into the church at the correct time. People filed in and past etc, like they do. I was an usher for this funeral; the deceased was a fellow member of the congregation. Anyway, the church filled up and there were just a few stragglers now in front of the casket. Turns out they were in some way related to the deceased. The woman looks at the body in the casket, says a few pious words and then proceeds to _try to get the bracelet OFF the deceased wrists_. It is sutured on, so no joy. She is tugging at the thing when the funeral director notices and goes over to her. I don’t remember the rest of the service, but the sight of that woman, pulling at a dead person’s wrist stays with me. We are an interesting species, no? Another behavior I’ve noticed is when people get up to “say a few words”–mostly those words are about THEM–not the deceased. That bothers me when that happens and I have told all concerned that I will haunt them if they go on and on about themselves, and not ME. At this point, I think I want a non-religious ceremony, by religious people. IOW, I admire and like my pastors, but I no believe their mumbo-jumbo. I see Jesus as a prophet and teacher, not as a Saviour etc. I have no problem believing in a god, I just don’t believe in organized religion etc. Cremate me and scatter my ashes either on the prairie or in UK somewhere. Let me be. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/51 "2006-04-10T16:22:21Z")
Hmm. The only religious funerals I have been exposed to were quite positive. While there was quite a bit of preaching, it wasn’t the fire and brimstone variety; it wasn’t directed at anyone in particular. The preacher would get up and give the “Jesus as your Saviour” talk, then various people would be called up to “give testimony” as to the Christian life of the deceased. We had two separate services for my father’s funeral. One was a private (family only) Catholic service; the other was a memorial service held in a large auditorium. Both were extremely nice; the only negative comment made at either one was my Uncle Raymond’s remark that “it’s such a shame your father won’t be there to give you away on your wedding day.” :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/52 "2006-04-10T17:58:35Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > In many pockets of population in the states of Michigan, Iowa, and Wisconsin, one finds the lands of the Calvinists, the Hyper-Calvinists, the Dominionists, and the Christian Reconstructionists. Ah, the faith of my forebears! I live in the aforementioned Michigan pocket, the Calviny-est land in Calvintown, and in all the funerals I have attended, in the Reformend Churches, not once have I heard a call-to-Jesus or alter call type of message at a funeral. In fact, the CRC churches around here are not known for evangelizing or alter calls at all. If someone asks you around here if you know Jesus as your personal savior, I would bet you $100 it’s not a Calvinist CRC member. More likely Pentecostal or Baptist. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/53 "2006-04-10T18:31:29Z")
> [@Velma](#): > > I live in the aforementioned Michigan pocket, the Calviny-est land in Calvintown, and in all the funerals I have attended, in the Reformend Churches, not once have I heard a call-to-Jesus or alter call type of message at a funeral. In fact, the CRC churches around here are not known for evangelizing or alter calls at all. If someone asks you around here if you know Jesus as your personal savior, I would bet you $100 it’s not a Calvinist CRC member. More likely Pentecostal or Baptist. I’ve not heard the altar calls either. I’ve heard condemnation of non-calvinist christians, non-biblical literalism christians, non-christians, gays, abortions, birth control, feminism, democrats, Unitarians, the Clintons, Rock and Roll, Madonna (as a person, not an artist), dancing, backsliders, and the insufficiently pious. Not all the time. Not every wedding or funeral. But at more than 2/3 if not more than 3/4. That I’ve been to. My area is notorious for having a lot of hardline Calvinist TULIP types. I am glad that the experience of others differs from mine. (The above applies to my experience in the local presbyterian, orthodox presbyterian, christian reformed, dutch reformed congregations. NOT my experience with methodist, catholic, episcopalian, jewish, or wiccan services) ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/54 "2006-04-10T18:45:00Z")
**Qagdop** , what is a TULIP type? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/55 "2006-04-10T19:05:48Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Another behavior I’ve noticed is when people get up to “say a few words”–mostly those words are about THEM–not the deceased. That bothers me when that happens and I have told all concerned that I will haunt them if they go on and on about themselves, and not ME. Hear hear. I had to speak recently at my late advisor’s memorial service (waaaaaaaaah I miss him ☹ ), and that was my first criterion: talk about him and not about me. I can’t stand it when people get up at a funeral or memorial service and start off “I’ll never forget my first meeting with X, I was new in the area” or something like that, and go maundering on for five or ten minutes all about themselves and what their life situation was when they met X, and it takes them forever to get to the point where they’re actually talking about X him/herself. Nobody wants to hear about you, dummkopf, they want to hear about X, you know, the person who’s dead, that they got dressed up and came all this way to pay their last respects to? If you want to talk about yourself then throw yourself a funeral, don’t hog X’s. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/56 "2006-04-10T19:08:42Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > **Qagdop** , what is a TULIP type? Total Depravity Unconditional Election Limited Atonement Irresistible Grace Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved) The 5 points of Calvinism. [The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP](http://www.mslick.com/tulip.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/57 "2006-04-10T19:37:56Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Total Depravity > Unconditional Election > Limited Atonement > Irresistible Grace > Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved) > > The 5 points of Calvinism. [http://www.mslick.com/tulip.htm](http://www.mslick.com/tulip.htm) Dear God I’m back in Catechism! And what is your only comfort in life and death, children?.. I totally know the types you are talking about. Although the no birth control thing I haven’t come across, more of a Catholic thing you know. The younger generation seems to be growing out of a lot of what you mention, but most of us around here do have grandparents that are still of the no work or swimming on Sundays type. However, my church even has _a woman pastor!_ Which would make the traditionalists upset, lots of fights in Synod over that little topic. (But hey, always reforming, you know…) I think the Iowa sections may still be the most old school of all. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/58 "2006-04-10T19:48:11Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Total Depravity > Unconditional Election > Limited Atonement > Irresistible Grace > Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved) > > The 5 points of Calvinism. [The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP](http://www.mslick.com/tulip.htm) I’m sure I’m asking this in the wrong store, but why, in the name of all that’s short, fuzzy, and green, would someone who has accepted that as their definition of Christianity, give a pluperfect damn whether Joe, Jane, or Jambalaya Bloe has accepted Christ as their personal savior? Nothing they can do will save them, nor damn them: they are one of the elect, or not. 😕😕 So why bother with the offensive, disgusting, and just plain fractious sort of sermon at a funeral as the OP described? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/59 "2006-04-10T20:04:56Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > \ Can anyone offer a concise history of **how** open casket services became the norm in the US? And why? > > And what steps can one do to end this abomination? > > (Look, after I’m dead, take anything you can use - but breaking bones, cutting and stitching to simply make me **look good** I object to. Vehemently. I never cared about my looks while I was alive, so why the blazes should I condone you doing stuff that would be considered desecretion of the corpse if not done by a mortuary artist?) > > \ My ex-MIL has her hairstylist all picked out and paid for when she goes to that great wigtree in the sky. Some folks are all about the final appearance. My BIL purchased new jewelry for my SIL to be buried in! ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951/60 "2006-04-10T20:37:50Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > I’m sure I’m asking this in the wrong store, but why, in the name of all that’s short, fuzzy, and green, would someone who has accepted that as their definition of Christianity, give a pluperfect damn whether Joe, Jane, or Jambalaya Bloe has accepted Christ as their personal savior? Nothing they can do will save them, nor damn them: they are one of the elect, or not. 😕😕 > > So why bother with the offensive, disgusting, and just plain fractious sort of sermon at a funeral as the OP described? So you’re saying you want Calvinists to be logically consistent with regards to election? Would you like a pony, as well? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-pastor-at-the-funeral-i-attended-yesterday/351951.md?page=4)