Wiccan. No. Humanity will grow and evolve, but, for the most part, we’ve been doing that since the beginning of recorded history. I think that there’s the possibility for a vast change in the way society works, based on the more rapid dissemation of information facilitated by electronic communication…but I have no idea if it’ll actually happen, and it has nothing to do with my spirituality. And, of course, I have no idea what form it’ll take.
Again, though, that’s a technologically based change, not a spiritually based change, and I have no idea if the results’ll be to my liking.
Siege- I did not say anything about the End Times- I asked about a Messianic Kingdom or New Age, with could arrive without apocalyptic disaster. So let me rephrase- do you believe there a society can or will emerge, perhaps even spread worldwide, which will embody high spiritual values?
Johanna- We didn’t cause the Dark Ages- the various barbarian sieges on the Roman Empire did. The Church preserved the learning & culture of the past, and eventually tamed the barbarians. Granted, the Church held tight onto its monopolistic control of culture & learning, and adopted the power-politics of Greco-Roman civilization for its own ends.
I’m with the vast majority of modern Christian historians in decrying the murder of Hypatia. Someday tho I gotta look up the early accounts to find out what justification was given by (was it Cyril?).
And “Christian Taliban” rhetoric just sound silly. It oughtta be Godwinized.
Monavis- actually, the New World concept is first fully developed by Isaiah (60-66, I think). And some of us Christians would say that the “world” (more correctly transliterated “aion”) did end in that generation with the destruction of the priest-sacrifice-Temple system in Jerusalem in 70 AD. An intriguing but still fringe teaching is growing in the Christian world that this event was the actual fulfillment of all “End-Times” prophecies, with no future Return of Christ or Resurrection or Last Judgement to occur in physical visible history, but all in the Afterlife.
tomdebb-
And why is this array of diverse & conflicting opinions on a controversial subject NOT a GD?
Well, up until the point where you began attempting to refute other posts, there had not been an actual debate. I suppose I should have just left it alone on the grounds that all religious stuff winds up back there, but it had begun to look as though it would live out its life as a poll.
just looked up Hypatia & Cyril- yep, the one contemporary C’tian writing attempting to justify it rings hollow. Apparently, it was part of a long campaign of abuses between Governor Orestes & Bishop Cyril, and was regarded as a bad thing by the Church outside Alexandria. But then, no attempt seemed to have been made to bring Cyril or his mob to justice either.
Or, more transcendentally, yes, and it could happen right now. The final battle of good against evil, and the age of peace that will follow will not happen as a clash of physical armies on Earth. It will happen in your heart, and the battle is happenning right now. The Kingdom of God is not a place, in the present or to come, but a metaphorical/spiritual state of being. Although I believe that Humanity, as a species, is improving (with some setbacks here and there) we will not all get to the Kingdom at once, nor do I think that they’ll ever be a time when all of Humanity’s problems are solved.
Part of the pre-millenial belief seems to be that it’s always darkest before the dawn, and its’s never been darker than right now, brother. I disagree. I think this isthe best time the world’s ever seen, taken in balance. There’s room for argument there, of course, but there’s certainly been a lot worse times. What makes this time so dosh garn special that the end is nigh?
Evangelical Lutheran/agnostic/atheist, depending on the day:
Nope or “it’s already happened,” depending on your definitions. The Kingdom of God is in your heart.
I’m converting to Moravian, whose Love Feast involves passing around sweet rolls and coffee–DURING and as PART OF the service. No more waiting until afterward!
Yes, I (and other Orthodox Jews) do believe that the Messiah will come and usher in a golden age of spiritual revival.
What form will it take? The prophecies only speak in the vaguest outlines, but the basics are: a Davidic descendant will be acknowledged by the Jewish people as their rightful king, he will somehow orchestrate the return to acknowledged Judaism of the lost tribes, and the Holy Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and sacrificial service resumed. Eventually, his enlightened teachings will cause non-Jews as well to acknowledge the truth of the Torah and the futility of worship that is directed toward any entity (real or imagined) other than the G-d historically and tradiationally worshipped by the Jews.
One of the few constants of belief is the belief that we live “at the end of times” . I see no reason to think we are anymore correct about this than the Norse awaiting Ragnarok.
If this is the “end of times” it is most likely like the Hindu Kali Yuga, with the end of times going from 3120 BCE to 427000 CE or some such.
Nonchurch-attending, born again, science-loving Judeo-Christian here:
I’m going to die on May 17, 2025. So the world will definitely keep turning until then.
So here’s my correction - IMO the answer is written on the heart of fallen man: No. Nothing like a New Age will occur without drastic intervention ON THE ORDER OF apocalyptic disaster. It certainly didn’t when Jesus came here the first time. Man’s nature hasn’t changed.
Are you saying the stars fell etc. and the moon has failed to give it’s light? I guess if one wants to believe that way one can but it doesn’t add up in my translation or thinking. Just as the Jew are still waiting for a Messiah.
That’s a shame! I always liked the Cthulhu mythos.
I am a humanist scientist, but I have agnostic leanings. Sure there is no evidence of any thing to back up theories of afterlifes etc, but that does not mean that there is nothing.
I cannot accept though that any god/creator would suddenly destroy most of his creations. I believe that if you have free will then you cannot have prophecy, all you can do is calculate the odds of an event happening.
As for the world ending in 2012, well there have been plenty of predictions for the end of the world that have been and gone and we are still here.
I like to think that we (humanity) have the potential to create a better world without the intervention of external entitites (whether divine or tentacled beasties) and that we could potentially spread out to the stars. Any potential end to our species will come either by out own mistakes or natural distasters such as meteors, super volcanoes or supernovae etc. In theory the human race could exist as long as the earth is habitable and if we develop the technology to leave here then we could exist as long as the universe is habitable. Inevitably we will die out, but not as the result of divine intervention ot the coming of a messiah to raise us all to heaven.
As an adendum to the above, another possible route to our extinction actually arises from these messianic beliefs as believers may attempt to instigate these events in effect to force gods hand.
I’ve sought in several posts to distinguish whatever Kingdom/New Age/Utopia to come from apocalyptic disaster, so let me ask you as a humanist scientist, do you believe humanity will achieve its potential & what would the world look like when that happens?
Sort of. The Church preserved the culture it had an interest in preserving. Did the Church preserve papyrii? (not a snarky question; I don’t know.)
If you want an example of preserving and disseminating classical works, look no further than Spain. The Moors invaded in 711, bringing science, art and literature, and more or less saving the peninsula from the ‘Dark Ages’. (They also kicked out the Visigoths…not much involvement from the Church there.) They established a center for translation in Toledo, thus preserving many classical texts. Though the question of convivencia is problematic and likely unresolvable, it seems fair to say that life, in most of the peninsula, in terms of religious conflict, was fairly pacific.
Eight hundred years later, the Reconquista complete, most every indigenous text found by the conquistadors, be it scientific, historical, religious or poetic, was destroyed. Fray Luis was thrown in prison for translating the Vulgate.
Also, Friar Ted (and anyone who cares to answer), though I am a crasher in this thread, I have a question (again, sincere, not snarky): Since we have always been living in the ‘End Times’ (according to someone, somewhere), how do you reconcile your beliefs with history? That is, to be blunt, why do you believe the present to be any different than the past?
Well, the destruction of Spanish literature was done by the bad Spanish medieval-Renaissance era Catholics, unlike the good Irish Dark Ages Catholics G
To answer your Q- I remind you that I see two possibilities RE the Messianic Kingdom- that it will come with the direct Return of Jesus to destroy the AntiChrist powers at Armageddon OR that it has been slowly stealthily growing since Jesus judged Jerusalem in 70 AD & the Roman Empire for the next four centuries & every nation & people for the past two millenia, until eventually all nations & peoples embrace the Gospel & Standards of YHWH/Jesus.
Even if the Kingdom is to come with an Apocalyptic return of Christ, I don’t necessarily see the End Times as soon. I do think there is a lot that has to be done- mainly the establishment of the Christian Church in every nation on Earth & also a much larger revival of Messianic Judaism/Judaic-C’nity.
However, I do see two signs which may indicate the End Times are approaching within perhaps this century-
the regathering of the Jews to Israel since 1948 & their 1967 retaking of Jerusalem;
the globalization of media, commerce, warfare, politics- so that global Evangelism & an international AntiChrist tyrrany & apocalyptic warfare are all possible.
