# To the St Paul/Minneapolis Catholic archdiocese, with special regards to Rev. Kevin McDonough: **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 25, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659 "2013-09-25T17:51:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/41 "2013-09-26T15:23:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Bullshit. You started from the premise that, because he liked men, he also liked boys, and the church should have known that. You’ve backpedalled to include the theory that, because he also liked women, the church should have known he liked boys, but that’s also offensive bullshit, just not quite such a dangerous stereotype. Nope. Please point out where I say that because he likes men he also likes boys. > [@](#): > > No, it is not a cause for that. Which is why the Bishop did not do that. Priests are not expected to be perfect, any more than anyone else is, and - as _everyone_ is imperfect, there is no inherent shame in that imperfection. You need to study the theology a hell of a lot more before you make any more asinine comments like that. Well I can’t seem to find anything about official punishment for a priest who breaks their vows, but of course as I’ve already said, I didn’t know what their official policy on this matter was and just assumed that there was something. However, I can easily find examples of priests resigning due to breaking said vow, so yes there is inherent shame in it. > [@](#): > > Damn, too late, there’s another one. The Bishop did his job. He attempted to help the priest overcome his desires, moved him to a new community where there was no stigma to _help_ that happen, and assessed the risk. Which was, at that point, apparently none. So his job included ignoring the complaints filed against the priest? Including the complaint that the priest was behaving inappropriately with the children he later molested? > [@](#): > > His past gave them no reason to assume he was a danger to children. Yes, I’ve already said this. > [@](#): > > You need to drop that offensive stereotype - the one you claim not to be perpetuating in your first paragraph - right fucking now. And you need to read what I’ve posted in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/42 "2013-09-26T15:25:49Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > The OP seems outraged that the priest engaged in entirely normal human behavior, but the DAMNED CHURCH didn’t follow it’s homophobic AND heterophobic sex policies and … expel him, or condem him from the pulpit or … something. Boyo Jim seems outraged that the sky isn’t orange. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/43 "2013-09-26T15:27:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I would, but it seems a bit unfair to hold you responsible for semantics in the words other people use. Can you give us any examples at all of priests who were publicly disciplined for having heterosexual intercourse? Why would I need to do that? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/44 "2013-09-26T16:01:17Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > So you believe that ice cream is good for computers? Why would think something like that? It is never a good sign when you can’t follow your own logic. Do you believe that attempts at having sex with other adult males are an indication of a desire to have sex with minor males? If you say Yes, then OK, you believe that gay men are child molesters. If you say No, then you have no basis to criticize the diocese for its actions. If you say “Yes, but only in the case of a priest who is breaking his vows”, then kindly produce cites showing that to be the case. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/45 "2013-09-26T16:49:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you believe that attempts at having sex with other adult males are an indication of a desire to have sex with minor males? If you say Yes, then OK, you believe that gay men are child molesters. As I have already said in this thread, multiple times, No of course not. > [@](#): > > If you say No, then you have no basis to criticize the diocese for its actions. Yes I do, which I have already said, multiple times. And it’s in the article. And here in this thread, multiple times. Above this post. Up there. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/46 "2013-09-26T16:55:47Z")
Just to make sure I have everything correct, you believe that because the bishop had prior knowledge of the priest’s high libido and tendency to act on it, he and/or the church administration should have done something much sooner to protect the reputation of the church and priests in general which would coincidentally have also spoked his wheel when it comes to the child abuse? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/47 "2013-09-26T16:57:45Z")
And yet you still can’t actually explain what they did wrong, without referring to the fact that the priest had sex with adults. That has no bearing on his later crimes. You’ve admitted you don’t know what the procedures for dealing with priests who break their vows are, so you can’t claim that, and you’ve also claimed to be saying they couldn’t have predicted his abuse. Do you juts have a problem with sex? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/48 "2013-09-26T17:02:07Z")
I don’t have different rules for priests than I do for a businessman or a taxi driver. I don’t have different rules for members of one religion versus another. I don’t encourage the RCC to be more hateful and more repressive of sexuality. I don’t consider it aberrant to want to have sex with other adults. I don’t consider it aberrant to hit on other adults, barring exceptions that are not in this story like the person is your underling at a company, etc. The RCC can be outraged that someone broke their vows to the church, but I couldn’t possibly care less about their vows. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/49 "2013-09-26T17:02:19Z")
What the OP isn’t getting is that there would be an ethical problem with keeping a priest at a parish if he was sexually harassing parishioners or people he interacts with as part of his job. For the same reasons that it’s inappropriate for a doctor to have sexual relationships with his or her patients…it’s a power imbalance and takes advantage of potential vulnerability of the other party. A priest “sinning” by having sex with random individuals who probably don’t even know he’s a priest is not an ethical issue as far as his job or responsibilities to his flock are concerned, any more than any other sin would be. One has nothing to do with the other, and as everyone has pointed out, you can’t assume that one type of sexual behavior indicates that there will be other types of sexual behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/50 "2013-09-26T17:35:59Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Yes I do, which I have already said, multiple times. No, as a matter of fact, you don’t. I know you have said so, a lot, but you are incorrect. There is no non-contradictory way simultaneously to claim that [list=A][li]Making sexual advances to adult males is not evidence of a desire to molest children, and [\*]A priest who makes sexual advances towards adult males is thereby demonstrating a desire to molest children.[/list]You cannot expect to be taken seriously when you say “The diocese should have known he would do this because of his prior actions which don’t go to show that he would do this.” [/li] Sorry, but there it is. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/51 "2013-09-26T17:41:28Z")
All I can figure is that the church had some evidence of the priest acting immorally and breaking church rules, and did not remove the priest from the parish and warn all the parishoners that the priest had some history of immoral acts. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/52 "2013-09-26T17:45:46Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Oh for fucks sake, quit trying to pin gay bashing on me and think for a second. I don’t give a shit if he’s gay or not. If the church does and that’s why they sent him to a looney bin that’s on them. I don’t care who he’s trying to screw, he shouldn’t be trying to screw anyone. > > The article doesn’t mention ‘gay’ even once. Let’s say for sake of argument that he did all of this to women. Is it now ok? No. > > Let’s say for sake of argument that he did all of this to people who were at least 18. Does that make it ok? No. > > Let’s say for the sake of argument that there are no children in the story and the victims were women. Now is it all ok? Hell no. So having sex with anyone is now a sign of pedophilia? The fuck? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/53 "2013-09-26T17:46:07Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > All I can figure is that the church had some evidence of the priest acting immorally and breaking church rules, and did not remove the priest from the parish and warn all the parishoners that the priest had some history of immoral acts. There’s a difference between immoral and unethical, though. What the priest had a history of doing isn’t unethical. And, really, the parishioners don’t have a right to know about the priest’s _immoral_ acts, as long as they have no bearing on his job. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/54 "2013-09-26T17:54:32Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > There’s a difference between immoral and unethical, though. What the priest had a history of doing isn’t unethical. And, really, the parishioners don’t have a right to know about the priest’s _immoral_ acts, as long as they have no bearing on his job. Personally, I don’t even think it’s immoral, considering the church’s draconian rules about priests and sex with other consenting adults. It’s just that what I wrote is the only way I can parse the OP as even remotely making sense … except that it doesn’t, and the OP thinks we’re somehow either deliberately misinterpreting the outrage, or we don’t understand it. Well, OP, you’re wrong. We do understand it, in the sense that we understand that nonsense is nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/55 "2013-09-26T18:04:55Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Personally, I don’t even think it’s immoral, considering the church’s draconian rules about priests and sex with other consenting adults. It’s just that what I wrote is the only way I can parse the OP as even remotely making sense … except that it doesn’t, and the OP thinks we’re somehow either deliberately misinterpreting the outrage, or we don’t understand it. Yeah, exactly…that’s what I’m trying to do, as well. And, it’s reasonable to think that what he did was not immoral, but even if you do adhere to the RCC’s teaching on it (which is that it would be immoral for _anyone_ to cruise for sex), it isn’t a predictor that it will carry over to his job…and CERTAINLY not that he will molest children. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/56 "2013-09-26T18:14:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But the question is: do you believe that if you’re a priest, and your bosses in the church discover you’re gay and have sought to break your vow of chastity with another man, should they out you? > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Perhaps more to the point, _do you believe that if you’re a priest, and your bosses in the church discover that you’ve sought to break your vow of chastity with a woman, should they out you?_ Or even further to the point: does the OP believe that the two situations should be treated identically? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/57 "2013-09-26T18:15:52Z")
You know what? I’m bored with this now. I truly have no idea where all the ‘OMG u hate fags!!!111’ shit came from. I hadn’t said a single thing about him being gay until after someone else brought it up, and even then I agreed with them. Apparently now it’s perfectly normal for priests to bang whoever they want, I must have missed the memo. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/58 "2013-09-26T18:28:25Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > You know what? I’m bored with this now. > > I truly have no idea where all the ‘OMG u hate fags!!!111’ shit came from. I hadn’t said a single thing about him being gay until after someone else brought it up, and even then I agreed with them. > > Apparently now it’s perfectly normal for priests to bang whoever they want, I must have missed the memo. It’s a matter of sin for a priest to bang any adult, but it’s not the kind of sin that is handled by announcing to the public that the priest has sinned in this way. Your expectation seems to be that the normal punishment for a priest who sins by having sex is some sort of public shaming ritual. It’s not. It’s prayer, counseling, and an effort to avoid that sin and the near occasion of that sin in the future. It’s most emphatically NOT an announcement of the sin to the public. Sometimes a priest’s response to counseling, and discernment, will make him realize that he wants to continue having sex, and to no longer act as a priest. If that happens, he can resign, and be removed from the clerical state. Sometimes, he will decide that while he fell off the wagon, he still wants to be a priest, and he is typically permitted to remain. None of these events should make any entity decide that the priest in question is a danger to children. The ‘OMG u hate fags!!!111’ shit came from your apparently unconscious assumption that a gay man is a danger to children, sexually, because that’s the only thing that the diocese had to go on, and you announced they failed their duty by not acting against him. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/59 "2013-09-26T18:55:01Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Apparently now it’s perfectly normal for priests to bang whoever they want, I must have missed the memo. Well, it’s at least as normal as assuming that a man who tries to pick up other men should be treated as a pedophilia risk. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659/60 "2013-09-26T19:06:21Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > You know what? I’m bored with this now. How convenient when you’ve been shown to be an ignorant hateful moron. > [@](#): > > I truly have no idea where all the ‘OMG u hate fags!!!111’ shit came from. I hadn’t said a single thing about him being gay until after someone else brought it up, and even then I agreed with them. No, I’m sure you genuinely don’t know where it comes from. Because you are an ignorant hateful moron. I’ll explain it again though. You think the church should have stopped the priest from having contact with children, for the protection of those children, because the priest had (attempted to have) sex with adult men. That is what you said, and what you have _repeatedly_ said. You think a priest that has sex with men - a gay person, in other words - is a threat to children. Because you are an ignorant, hateful moron. > [@](#): > > Apparently now it’s perfectly normal for priests to bang whoever they want, I must have missed the memo. Yep, perfectly normal. It’s also normal for people to cheat on their partners, and get drunk and hit them, it’s normal for people to lie and cheat and steal and kill in all manners and all walks of life. Doesn’t make it right, but as I’m sure even you can figure out there’s different appropriate responses to each of them. A priest having consensual sex with an adult should not be treated the same as one having sex with a child. They are completely different acts, both morally and legally (statute and canon). What you are doing is the equivalent of saying we should execute shoplifters because hey, they’re criminals, they might be murderers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-st-paul-minneapolis-catholic-archdiocese-with-special-regards-to-rev-kevin-mcdonough/669659.md?page=4)