# To the State and Local governments: Just put up toll booths and shut down the speed traps. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266 "2009-07-25T23:44:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/41 "2009-07-28T05:41:27Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > They are. They’re willing to break the law but too cowardly to face the consequences. Cowards are quick to hide, sniveling, and spineless, behind government authority without considering if it’s a justified use of power. Like you, for example. The DC cops were using traffic controls as a revenue generating device. Collecting a billion dollars from 2005 to 2008, or 10% of all traffic control revinue collected in the country. Meanwhile the app actually makes people slow down, in compliance with speed laws. Where as a ticket just collects money from them as they speed along. You’d think if the DC cops were interested in enforcing speed laws for the public safety they’d be happy, but instead they get pissed off about budget time. They just wanted the money. ---
**Author:** ![Skylark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Skylark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skylark)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/42 "2009-07-28T07:28:52Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Meanwhile the app actually makes people slow down, in compliance with speed laws. Where as a ticket just collects money from them as they speed along. You’d think if the DC cops were interested in enforcing speed laws for the public safety they’d be happy, but instead they get pissed off about budget time. They just wanted the money. In Dallas a couple years ago (it might have been talked about on this board), they had a real problem with all the red light cameras they had installed because they were too successful in making people slow down and not run red lights, thus making the streets safer, but they ended up removing a bunch of them because the city was losing revenue from traffic citations. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/43 "2009-07-28T07:32:01Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > The issue here is simple: don’t speed, you won’t get cited for speeding. If you can prove that people get cited for speeding without actually, you know, violating the speed limit, then you have some room to talk. 😉 > . How do you know you’re speeding? Down on Pacific Coast Highway, the limit dropped from 45 to 25 with one small sign, which was hardly visible at night. I didn’t see it. Part of the bit with a speed trap is to not make the new speed limit all that clear. When I drive, I drive to be safe- which entails looking out for a lot more than speed limit signs. Traffic, pedestrians, and many other things take a higher priority. I want to drive at the safe speed first, the posted speed is a lower priority. Often in speed traps the posted speed is not the safe speed. Is it right for a area to reduce the public safety to garner some more fines? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/44 "2009-07-28T07:45:21Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Apparently the DC chief went so far as to call users of it “cowardly”. Funny that. Come to think about it , the iPhone has not been around that long enough to dilute the DC rev stream, and while DC is fed city with more black berrys than you can shake a stick at , Im pretty sure the bulk of the avoidance has been with TomToms and Garmins. Declan ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/45 "2009-07-28T09:27:30Z")
> [@Spartydog](#): > > Yes, which has a lot to do with the OP, which was originally in The Pit. > > The whole rant is not about a few bucks. 30 years ago you paid a fine of $10 or $20 dollars and it was pretty much over with. Today, the fines run over $100, you get points on your record (which States share with each other), there are surcharges that may go on for several years, and the insurance companies use the information to slam drivers that have never made an accident claim, for thousands of dollars. > > It’s as if you lost a bet in a crooked casino and then got sent a bill of a thousand dollars for the next 3 years. > > I’ll pay the stupid fine. That’s not the problem. The problem is that in too many cases these days, traveling a few mph over the surreptitiously posted speed limit, while it should be considered little more than a parking ticket, has serious long-term consequences. A question for a non 'Merican - just how common and how much is this “slammed by insurance companies” you are talking about? Round here we get a 5% discount on insurance as a “safe driver bonus” if you maintain a points free record. For the occasional ticket it makes not difference to renewing your insurance. If you wanna change insurers they do ask about tickets - but again unless you are a particularly nasty offender it won’t make much difference. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/46 "2009-07-28T10:32:50Z")
It’s neat how something so minor as traffic tickets can bring out vicious behavior on both sides of the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/47 "2009-07-28T10:33:57Z")
Here’s an idea: Ticket revenues from all towns and counties in an entire state will be pooled together. At the end of the year, the sum will be distributed between them based on population, regardless of how much each police department contributed to the pool. This way, they’ll still get their money, but the individual departments will have less of an incentive to work too hard for it. Because as the situation stands, it isn’t much different from tax farming. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/48 "2009-07-28T10:51:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Here’s an idea: > > Ticket revenues from all towns and counties in an entire state will be pooled together. At the end of the year, the sum will be distributed between them based on population, regardless of how much each police department contributed to the pool. That’s not a horrible idea but it does have a possible problem. Cities like Dallas, Austin, and Houston really do need to have a mechanism to keep people from speeding (ha!), and, so far as I know, they aren’t really known as speed traps in the sense that is being used in this thread. That means Dallas, Texas is going to be spending more than Paris, Texas in traffic enforcement (speeding tickets) but Paris is going to generate more revenue simply because they don’t spend as much to begin with. i.e. it sounds like a great deal for Paris because they’re going to profit from it whereas Dallas is going to lose money. I could be completely off base though because I don’t know how much it cost either city. Of course you also run into the whole problem of citizens and politicians who want to retain control of what goes on within their own counties and municipalities. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/49 "2009-07-28T11:56:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How do you know you’re speeding? Down on Pacific Coast Highway, the limit dropped from 45 to 25 with one small sign, which was hardly visible at night. I didn’t see it. Part of the bit with a speed trap is to not make the new speed limit all that clear. In the UK that would be enough to invalidate the ticket. I’m amazed it’s not also the case in the USA. Are there not DOT-mandated requirements for sign size and illumination etc? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/50 "2009-07-28T12:10:38Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > That’s not a horrible idea but it does have a possible problem. Cities like Dallas, Austin, and Houston really do need to have a mechanism to keep people from speeding (ha!), and, so far as I know, they aren’t really known as speed traps in the sense that is being used in this thread. That means Dallas, Texas is going to be spending more than Paris, Texas in traffic enforcement (speeding tickets) but Paris is going to generate more revenue simply because they don’t spend as much to begin with. i.e. it sounds like a great deal for Paris because they’re going to profit from it whereas Dallas is going to lose money. I could be completely off base though because I don’t know how much it cost either city. > > Of course you also run into the whole problem of citizens and politicians who want to retain control of what goes on within their own counties and municipalities. > > Odesio Well, as Paris is smaller than Dallas, they’ll receive less money. The assumption is that every citizen is entitled to the same amount of revenue. As for objections - isn’t one of the state’s jobs to curb the excesses of its subdivisions? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/51 "2009-07-28T13:49:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How do you know you’re speeding? Down on Pacific Coast Highway, the limit dropped from 45 to 25 with one small sign, which was hardly visible at night. I didn’t see it. Part of the bit with a speed trap is to not make the new speed limit all that clear. > > When I drive, I drive to be safe- which entails looking out for a lot more than speed limit signs. Traffic, pedestrians, and many other things take a higher priority. I want to drive at the safe speed first, the posted speed is a lower priority. Often in speed traps the posted speed is not the safe speed. > > Is it right for a area to reduce the public safety to garner some more fines? See, this is where I have a problem. You, and others, talk about all these places where you cannot easily know you are speeding. I, and others, talk about never having an issue with such places. And I’ve driven a LOT around the country, including a lot of California (including a lot of the PCH), both on freeway and off. And somehow, I, and the others like me, don’t have these issues. But most of those who complain about such things (I’m not saying this is true of you, since I’ve not reviewed your postings to see), when you review what they are saying, fulminate about the whole idea of speed limits in general. When the rhetoric is stripped away, the argument resolves to an assertion that there is something basically wrong with having speed limits that don’t match what the person personally believes is “safe” for a given area. Which, to my mind, means that the issue they have with speed limits, and “speed traps”, is really all about wanting to do what they want, unencumbered by outside restriction. If you approach driving as I have learned to do (and it took two accidents which were not in any way my fault, one a T-bone from someone running a red light, one a mild highway accident from someone pulling out in front of me from a side road on US 101), you understand that it requires regular vigilence. Town coming up along the road? Probably gonna ask you to drop your speed; don’t wait until the sign to do so. No one is arguing that a true “speed trap” (and yes, they do exist in places) should be allowed to exist. But, amazingly, some people do manage to avoid their effects; perhaps this should suggest a course of action for those as can’t. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/52 "2009-07-28T14:07:08Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Well, I dunno, maybe if you _DIDN’T SPEED_, maybe you wouldn’t be getting pulled over. Just wanted to add that it has been well documented that many roads are engineered to support speeds much higher than their posted speed limits. You don’t see a contradiction in widening lanes, cutting down turning rations, etc. and then posting a 30 mph speed limit? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/53 "2009-07-28T14:34:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Here’s an idea: > > Ticket revenues from all towns and counties in an entire state will be pooled together. At the end of the year, the sum will be distributed between them based on population, regardless of how much each police department contributed to the pool. > > This way, they’ll still get their money, but the individual departments will have less of an incentive to work too hard for it. Because as the situation stands, it isn’t much different from tax farming. What about my idea of donating traffic fines to worthwhile charities? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/54 "2009-07-28T14:50:58Z")
That’s fine, but these municipalities will still need money. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/55 "2009-07-28T16:43:05Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > See, this is where I have a problem. You, and others, talk about all these places where you cannot easily know you are speeding. I, and others, talk about never having an issue with such places. And I’ve driven a LOT around the country, including a lot of California (including a lot of the PCH), both on freeway and off. And somehow, I, and the others like me, don’t have these issues. > > But most of those who complain about such things (I’m not saying this is true of you, since I’ve not reviewed your postings to see), when you review what they are saying, fulminate about the whole idea of speed limits in general. > > Town coming up along the road? Probably gonna ask you to drop your speed; don’t wait until the sign to do so. > > No one is arguing that a true “speed trap” (and yes, they do exist in places) should be allowed to exist. But, amazingly, some people do manage to avoid their effects; perhaps this should suggest a course of action for those as can’t. There are not a lot of real Speed traps out there. You’d have to have driven through Hermosa Beach in the 70’s to find mine on PCH. As was clear from my Judges ruling, the Courts had gotten tired of that particular Speed trap, and were ruling against it. I _think_ an injunction was issued some little bit later, in any case it went away. In my case I have no trouble with speed limits. I drive 5-7 mph over the limit it’s it’s clear, safe and going with the flow. In CA, this almost never gets you a ticket, and so I have not gotten a speeding ticket in like 20 years. Town coming up along the road? PCH in that stretch is solid urban area. There’s little way to know you have left Redondo Bch to enter Hermosa Beach then to enter Manhattan Bch. Or Torrance or Lomita or El Segundo. Some people avoid them as they are locals in the know or they just weren’t the one in a dozen the cruise picked out who were all going the same speed. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/56 "2009-07-28T17:12:27Z")
Maybe there should be the option of doing community service instead of paying the fine. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266/57 "2009-07-28T19:22:46Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Maybe there should be the option of doing community service instead of paying the fine. That would be a fair solution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-state-and-local-governments-just-put-up-toll-booths-and-shut-down-the-speed-traps/504266.md?page=2)