# To the Two Loons
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [April 9, 2006, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934 "2006-04-09T07:50:29Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 10
### Author:  [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/181 "2006-04-11T18:52:14Z")
> [@](#):
>
> For a person defending religious fundamentalism, you’re kind of a nasty little prick aren’t you. Its pricks like you that reinforce my dislike for religious fundamentalist.
And it’s pricks like you that make religious people, turn into fundies. By taking a deeply held, and spiritual, belief in God and comparing it to a wacko who thinks the government killed 3k of their own people to build a pipeline! To make some strange point, that could have been made without resorting to shitting on someones religion.
Take Sent as an example; has he backed down at all in the face of all the negative calls on his character? No. Instead he has become more fanatic and fantastic in his claims. A deeply religious person who reads that a someone is equating his/her faith with a CT nut, would do the same.
> [@](#):
>
> Are you not supposed to ask yourself “What would Jesus do?”? I doubt he would call people dicks.
Im not Jesus, so I wouldn’t pretend to know what he would do. IMHO, when he was nailed to that cross, left there for a few days, then stabbed with a spear…he probably thought “Dick”. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/182 "2006-04-11T18:56:40Z")
tomnebb,
Explain the physics of a fireball travelling down a quarter-mile elevator shaft that can blow out elevator doors and obliterate the contents of a machine shop. Doesn’t sound reasonable to me. More likely, these were explosions.
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### Author:  [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/183 "2006-04-11T19:04:22Z")
> [@VegemiteMoose](#):
>
> Have you seen your friend since the [del]cover up[/del] conversation with his wife. HAVE YOU?!?
No! Oh SHIT!!!
high five, myself, no friends…
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### Author:  [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/184 "2006-04-11T19:07:06Z")
> [@Dob](#):
>
> By taking a deeply held, and spiritual, belief in God and comparing it to a wacko who thinks the government killed 3k of their own people to build a pipeline!
Please explain how a deeply held spiritual belief in god is different than Sent’s deeply held spiritual belief in a goofy conspiracy? Try to pretend you are talking to a person who believes in neither god nor goofy conspiracy theories.
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### Author:  [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/185 "2006-04-11T19:07:32Z")
> [@Dob](#):
>
> Im not Jesus, so I wouldn’t pretend to know what he would do. IMHO, when he was nailed to that cross, left there for a few days, then stabbed with a spear…he probably thought “Dick”. 🙂
I bet what he was REALLY thinking was “OWWWWWWWWWWW”…then again I’m not jesus either.
---
### Author:  [@Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greenback)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/186 "2006-04-11T19:21:46Z")
> [@Sent](#):
>
> I keep hearing all this talk about the fallibility of witness testimony, not just here but elsewhere. This can be true. However, doesn’t it depend on a total evaluation of all witness testimony, and how many people’s stories are corroborated on the same event? When you have a trial where you present evidence to determine what happened in a case, do you call in only expert witnesses to scientfically analyze what happened, or do you also call in the people involved who saw or experienced certain things. That was _supposed to_ have been the 9/11 Commission’s job. That isn’t what they did.
>
> Open your eyes.
>
> [http://www.arcticbeacon.com/24-Jun-2005.html](http://www.arcticbeacon.com/24-Jun-2005.html)
>
> The witness testimony of this group of people about the explosion in the basement, in a court of law, outweighs any expert testimony, no matter how credible. There has not been a FAIR hearing of all witness testimony and a consideration of all possibilities. That is how incorrect conclusions have been drawn. You have to look at all lines of evidence and the big picture.
You don’t think that people might have been caught up in the panic and misinterpreted events around them? It’s not like it’s [happened before](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002520986_katmyth26.html)
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/187 "2006-04-11T19:35:09Z")
> [@Sent](#):
>
> You have to look at all lines of evidence and the big picture.
You first.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/188 "2006-04-11T19:38:29Z")
> [@Sent](#):
>
> tomnebb,
>
> Explain the physics of a fireball travelling down a quarter-mile elevator shaft that can blow out elevator doors and obliterate the contents of a machine shop. Doesn’t sound reasonable to me. More likely, these were explosions.
OF COURSE IT WAS AN EXPLOSION! What do you think 10,000 lbs. of jet fuel DO when you sent them on fire and when some of it is funneled into the confined area of an elevator shaft? As to the “quarter-mile,” what of it? Gravity works on exploding material just like anything else. We tend to think of explosions going up because explosives are usually set or dropped onto the ground which is too firm to allow the exploding gasses to penetrate, forcing much of it upward, but when there is no ground below an explosion, gravity will drag it downward just like anything else. Artillery has used airbursts as an effective weapon since the Civil War. The coal dust and ammunition from the _Maine_ blew downward very effectively.
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### Author:  [@Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greenback)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/189 "2006-04-11T19:41:22Z")
> [@Sent](#):
>
> tomnebb,
>
> Explain the physics of a fireball travelling down a quarter-mile elevator shaft that can blow out elevator doors and obliterate the contents of a machine shop. Doesn’t sound reasonable to me. More likely, these were explosions.
You have never stood next to a cluster of tall buildings and felt a downdraft? Seriously, are you always this obtuse or are you selective on when you decide to throw away basic life experiences it exchange for some pixels written by chimps?
I would just tell you to [google](http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=4&c=y) it yourself but it seems that CT’s are taking over the internet.
> [@](#):
>
> “We’ve all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.”
> – Robert Wilensky
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/190 "2006-04-11T19:42:14Z")
> [@Sent](#):
>
> Explain the physics of a fireball travelling down a quarter-mile elevator shaft that can blow out elevator doors and obliterate the contents of a machine shop. Doesn’t sound reasonable to me.
Remember the falling elevators? Consider the effect they would’ve had on the atmosphere behind them. Can you say “vacuum”?
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### Author:  [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/191 "2006-04-11T19:44:02Z")
> [@Sent](#):
>
> tomnebb,
>
> Explain the physics of a fireball travelling down a quarter-mile elevator shaft that can blow out elevator doors and obliterate the contents of a machine shop. Doesn’t sound reasonable to me. More likely, these were explosions.
Ever heard of fluid mechanics?
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### Author:  [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/192 "2006-04-11T19:58:10Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Please explain how a deeply held spiritual belief in god is different than Sent’s deeply held spiritual belief in a goofy conspiracy? Try to pretend you are talking to a person who believes in neither god nor goofy conspiracy theories.
I have been on this board long enough to know this line of conversation isn’t going to end anywhere. But…
Whether or not you think there is a difference beteween a CT, or a RF, is not relavent to why I called you a dick. I called you a dick because you said something im sure you knew was insulting to RF’s, for no reason (I can see) except to be insulting. Hence, you are a dick.
FTR, I agree that to an atheist a CT would equal a RF. Both dont rely on any sort of real hard proof, but go on “gut”, or “faith”, or what THEY would call “common sense”. And again, if I have to explain to why it would be insulting to equate the two, it points to one of two things:
1. Your dense
2. Your not dense, your just being a dick.
I have read many of your posts, in this thread and others, so I dont think your dense.
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### Author:  [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/193 "2006-04-11T20:00:16Z")
> [@Jeep's Phoenix](#):
>
> Ever heard of fluid mechanics?
[tin foil hat ON]
Ha! Everyone knows you can’t make a mechanical device out of _fluid!_
[tin foil hat OFF]
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/194 "2006-04-11T20:01:55Z")
> [@Sent](#):
>
> tomnebb,
>
> Explain the physics of a fireball travelling down a quarter-mile elevator shaft that can blow out elevator doors and obliterate the contents of a machine shop. Doesn’t sound reasonable to me. More likely, these were explosions.
Really? Doesn’t sound reasonable to you? What do you base this judgement on, precisely? Your extensive knowledge of demolitions? Your advanced degree in thermodynamics? Perhaps years of experience rigging explosions for Hollywood movies? Exactly what experiences and skillsets are you drawing on to make the conclusion that its not “reasonable” for a fireball to behave in that fashion under those circumstances. 'Cause I’ll admit right up front, I don’t have anything near the background to determine if a claim like that is “reasonable” or not. Nothing in my life has ever happened that’s sufficiently comparable to detonating a 10,000 lb fuel bomb in an office high-rise that can allow me to make the determination of whether or not that scenario is “reasonable.”
However, there are thousands of people out there who have _precisely_ that sort of background. People in the military, who blow things up for a living. Physicists, who have spent years studying the underlying mathematical formulas that dictate the motion of excited particles. These people have been sifted through the remains of the towers, have studied the data, including your precious eye-witness reports, and their conclusions are precisely what **tomndebb** has posted: an airplane hit the building, the fuel tanks exploded, and the blast was channeled down the building through the elevator shafts. If you don’t want to believe them, then the onus is on you to come up with either the mathematical proof that shows their conclusion to be impossible, or evidence that all these hundreds of people, from disparate backgrounds and organizations, are _all_ either thouroughly corrupt, or entirely incompetent.
Let me describe the position you’re putting me in, here. One one side, we have hundreds and hundreds of people who do this sort of thing for a living, and who have no discernable motive to lie, and several substantial motives for blowing the whistle on any cover-up they might be involved in. All of these people say A. On the other hand, we have you, with absolutely no first-hand experience with the material, and an edited and editorialized video-tape you found on [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com), that says B. A and B are mutually incompatibile, which means that the proponents of one of these theories must be either idiots, or lying. From my perspective, what do you think is easier to believe? That all these hundreds and hundreds of people are idiots? Or that you are?
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### Author:  [@Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greenback)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/195 "2006-04-11T20:04:25Z")
> [@Ponder Stibbons](#):
>
> [tin foil hat ON]
> Ha! Everyone knows you can’t make a mechanical device out of _fluid!_
> [tin foil hat OFF]
Two words: [T 2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-1000)
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### Author:  [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/196 "2006-04-11T20:14:04Z")
> [@Dob](#):
>
> FTR, I agree that to an atheist a CT would equal a RF. Both dont rely on any sort of real hard proof, but go on “gut”, or “faith”, or what THEY would call “common sense”. And again, if I have to explain to why it would be insulting to equate the two, it points to one of two things:
>
> 1. Your dense
> 2. Your not dense, your just being a dick.
>
> I have read many of your posts, in this thread and others, so I dont think your dense.
I can live with that.
FTR, I was not intending to be insulting to people with religious beliefs, just the crazy ones. You know the ones that think its ok to kill people who don’t believe what they do. The ones who want to control everybody elses lives. Basiclly the shitheads. If you want to defend THOSE people, be my guest. Frankly, I have no problem being a dick to THOSE people.
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### Author:  [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/197 "2006-04-11T21:16:56Z")
**Sent** , it’s too bad that it took four pages of this thread and what, 8(?) of the one in GD to get to the heart of the matter, but if you read nothing else, please read the last pargraph of **Miller** ’s recent post above. That really sums ups why you simply haven’t a leg to stand on here.
Frankly, if you cannot see where you may be in error after reading that paragraph, it is convincing evidence that your mind is completely closed on this subject.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/198 "2006-04-11T21:53:14Z")
> [@Sent](#):
>
> Think outside your box, question your most fundamental assumptions.
And when we do that and still do not come to the conclusions that you do, what does that mean?
Why do this calls to these ways of thinking end up being accusations that if you don’t agree with the person you are somehow thinking wrong?
---
### Author:  [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/199 "2006-04-11T22:18:09Z")
> [@askeptic](#):
>
> All this conspiracy shit raises an interesting question. Is there any possible evidence that could, if it existed, prove to us that Sent’s theories are in fact correct? I tend to think that whatever he argues and whatever he may link to would be insuficient to change the minds of anyone here? I for one can’t think of anything that would persuade me that a conspiracy as described by sent, is responsible for 9/11.
As a matter of fact, I sort of answered this in GD, but I’ll be happy to summarize it here:
_Kunilou’s First Rule of Conspiracies_ – Somebody always talks
_Kunilou’s Second Rule of Conspiracies_ – The pieces have to fit together
So what **Sent** or any good conspiracy theorist could do is find the person with the big mouth who can explain his little part of the big picture, and point us along to the next person in line. With some confirmation of this person’s involvement (and I’m not talking about nutjobs who claim they PERSONALLY gave Josef Stalin the poison only to find out Stalin died several years before they were born) we have a piece of a jigsaw puzzle.
With the name of the next person in line, we can then work on that piece, knowing who to talk to, what records to search, etc. As the pieces fall into place, the rationale behind the act begins to make sense. We see the reason for doing it in the first place, and who stood to benefit from it.
This is how Watergate, Iran-Contra, the Lewinsky scandal and every other coverup I can think of, eventually became revealed.
Let me ask the question another way. Is there any possible argument, any possible presentation of facts, any possible set of witnesses with conflicting testimony, anything at all, that would convince **Sent** (not that I’m picking on you personally, Sent, but you’re still here to answer the question, and I commend you for that) that the “official” finding is actually pretty much what happened?
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### Author:  [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/200 "2006-04-11T22:44:59Z")
> [@Dob](#):
>
> IMHO, when he was nailed to that cross, left there for a few days, then stabbed with a spear…he probably thought “Dick”. 🙂
He was only actually nailed to the cross for a few hours. Then they took him down and stuck him in a tomb for a few days. You know, that whole resurrection thing?
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