# To the Two Loons
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [April 9, 2006, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934 "2006-04-09T07:50:29Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 11
### Author:  [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/201 "2006-04-11T23:01:33Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Frankly, I have no problem being a dick to THOSE people.
Im with you on that one. My apologies for being so prickly myself. Looks like I read WAY to much into it. My bad.
> [@](#):
>
> He was only actually nailed to the cross for a few hours
Ohhhh…so he probably didn’t think “Dicks” then? I mean a few hours…whats that?
* * *
I stand corrected. Days should have been Hours.
---
### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/202 "2006-04-11T23:38:21Z")
> [@Sent](#):
>
> I never personally insulted anyone. Quote?
That is a lie. You have accused the government of mass murder of its own citizens on September 11, 2001. Your assertions that any of those whacked out CT conspiracy theories is even remotely or tangentially true is an insult itself.
> [@](#):
>
> I automatically give respect, it is only lost when a person demonstrates that it should be lost.
That is two lies. (1) You are not showing any respect whatsoever to the victims of that attack by touting your insane and, well, flat-out stupid “theories.” (2) Those victims and the government have not demonstrated what you say they have.
> [@](#):
>
> Authority can bypass critical thinking.
FINALLY! My fellow Straight Dopers; do you, or do you not, see right here that Sent has admitted finally what he’s on about? He is adamantly NOT using critical thinking of any kind. He is relying on authority! And what is that authority? Why, of course, it’s the malarkey he’s been tossing up as “evidence.”
> [@](#):
>
> Buy the video and judge for yourself.
No, thanks. I have no personal interest in supporting whack-job loonies’ businesses, and especially if that business is selling manufactured “evidence.”
> [@](#):
>
> McVeigh was there, but there was someone else in the truck with him, a middle-eastern man. This is shown on surveillance tapes currently classified and being held by the FBI. If they would release these tapes, it would dispel this notion once and for all. They will not.
You admit that you don’t have any proof of what you just asserted? Do you not see how bigoted that statement of yours is? It’s actually twice prejudiced: (1) against the government and (2) against some anonymous Middle-Eastern individual of whom, you admit, you have no evidence of even being where you assert he was!
---
### Author:  [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/203 "2006-04-12T01:16:14Z")
Just so I can repeat myself…
Here’s what it looks like to me…
crazy conspiracy theory believer (cctb) I believe the government is responsible for blowing up the world trade center. Can you cite where they didn’t?
everyone else(ee) multiple cites
cctb: I don’t believe that cite can you show me any more?
ee: more cites and discussion
cctb: That cite is false but I’m too smart to explain it to you. Can you show me a cite where I’m not"
ee: even more cites and discussions
cctb: That cite doesn’t exist. You are all wrong and only I know the real truth.
repeat endlessly
I give up.
Entertaining to read though and I AM learning something from all the cites so there’s a plus.
Seriously, why do you guys raise to this kind of bait? Especially when you KNOW that no matter what you say, he’s never gonna change his mind.
Let him go on in his own happy, conspiracy-ridden world and enjoy his superiority. Anything else is nothing more than mutual masturbation.
---
### Author:  [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/204 "2006-04-12T01:24:33Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Let me describe the position you’re putting me in, here. One one side, we have hundreds and hundreds of people who do this sort of thing for a living, and who have no discernable motive to lie, and several substantial motives for blowing the whistle on any cover-up they might be involved in. All of these people say A. On the other hand, we have you, with absolutely no first-hand experience with the material, and an edited and editorialized video-tape you found on [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com), that says B. A and B are mutually incompatibile, which means that the proponents of one of these theories must be either idiots, or lying. From my perspective, what do you think is easier to believe? That all these hundreds and hundreds of people are idiots? Or that you are?
Okay, yes, this is a perfectly reasonable argument. If I were you and I hadn’t seen all the little pieces that I’ve seen, then I would probably think the same thing. In fact, that is how I thought before. I just had more faith in people in general, in the competence or minimum integrity level of the majority of people. Now, I still have faith in people, but I’m a lot more critical of the information I’m provided and of people in power. I suppose I just couldn’t wrap my head around that kind of deceit before, or how few people it actually takes to perpetrate a conspiracy.
I could probably fill this thread with 50 pages just of those peices of evidence that connect to each other in some way. Taken alone, I could discount each piece, but altogether I lean much more strongly towards accepting an alternative theory of government complicity, at the very least allowing this thing to happen, than I do the theory that across the board incompetence of our entire government and military apparatus was the cause. If my job were to protect you and I step back and let somebody else shoot you, or I buy the gun for the guy who’s going to shoot you, it’s really no different than if I shot you myself.
Here’s an article from an aeuronautical enginner and pilot.
[http://physics911.net/sagadevan.htm](http://physics911.net/sagadevan.htm)
Are any of you pilots? What is your opinion of this?
---
### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/205 "2006-04-12T01:46:32Z")
So, Sent, tell us who’s really and ultimately behind all this? Is it the Masons, the Catholic church, the Mormon church, the New World Order?
Or, as is most likely, you’re both stupid and insane? Stupid to believe the stuff and insane to think that people with actual working brains would buy your bunk (pun intended).
---
### Author:  [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/206 "2006-04-12T01:46:40Z")
Here is the team of physics911 who you allege to be “crazy conspiracy theorists”.
Robert Ballan
Norwood, NY, USA
MSc & JD: Clarkson College
Chemistry & Law
Kevin Barrett
Lone Rock WI, USA PhD U of Wisconsin
Islamic Studies
Walter Davis
Kent, OH, USA
PhD: U of Connecticut
Kinesiology
A. K. Dewdney
London, Canada
PhD: U of Waterloo
Mathematics
Frank R. Greening
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada PhD McMaster
Physical Chemistry
Sr. Res. Scientist
Derrick Grimmer
Ames, IA, USA
PhD: Washington University
Physics
David Heller
Berkeley, CA
BS: Physics Bard College
MA: S. F. Inst. Architecture
Architect and Builder
Timothy P. Howell
Upsala, Sweden
PhD: U. of Edinburgh
Computer Science
Steven E. Jones
Provo, Utah
PhD: Vanderbilt University
Physicist, Brigham Young U.
Joseph M. Keith
Tustin, CA, USA
BSE: California State University at LA
Aerospace Engineer
Peter J. Kirsch
Western Cape, South Africa
MD: University of Witwatersrand
Forensic Pathology
Jerry Longspaugh
Fort Worth, TX, USA
MSc: Brooklyn Polytechnic
Aerospace Engineer
Brad Mayeaux
Kenner, LA, USA
Electr. &Tech. Inst. of New Orleans
Cellphone Engineer
George F. Nelson
Huntsville, AL, USA
FAA A&P Licence
US Airforce Colonel (ret.)
Ralph W. Omholt
Kirkland, WA, USA
AAPP University of Alaska
Professional Airline Pilot
Morgan Reynolds
Arkansas, USA PhD: U of Wisconsin
former Chief Economist,
United States Department of Labor
Kevin Ryan
Bloomington, IN, USA
BSc Indiana University
Chemistry
ASQ Certified Quality Engineer
Nila Sagadevan
Laguna Hills, CA, USA
HBS U. of Edinburgh.
Aeronautical Engineer and Qualified Pilot
David Shayler
Eastbourne, Great Britain
Hon MA Lit. & Linguistics
MI5 (former)
Helen Stace
Perth, Australia
PhD: U of Sydney
Biology
Bernard Windham
Tallahassee, FL, USA
MS Florida State
MS Louisiana State
Statistician
Gregory Zeigler
New Mexico, USA
PhD UCLA
Former Captain, US Army
Military Intelligence
Associate Members:
Karin Brothers
Toronto, Canada
MS Georgia State
Instructional Design Systems Engineer
John DiNardo
Towaco, NJ, USA
BA: Kean University
Science Education
Donald Eckhoff
Morgan Hill CA, USA
Drexel Institute of Technology
Engineer & manufacturer
Kenyon Gibson
London, England
USC @ Santa Barbara
US Naval Intelligence
Phil Jayhan
Chicago, IL, USA
Barrington High
Technician and
Webmaster
Leland Lehrman
Santa Fe, NM, USA
+1.505.982.3609
Webmaster
Newspaper Editor
Activist
Frank Levi
Dromara, N. Ireland
BSc (Hons) Queens University of Belfast
IT Manager
Don Paul
San Francisco, CA, USA
Stegner Fellow: Stanford University
Author/Activist
Martha Rush
Auburn Hills, MI, USA
Oxford High School
Certified Respiratory Therapist & Private Pilot
Jonah Winters
Vancouver, Canada MA: U of Toronto
Web Designer
---
### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/207 "2006-04-12T01:51:02Z")
And yet: Not one Structural Engineer, not even a Civil Engineer. No Failure analyst. No demolition expert.
but oooh! They have a web designer, and a Kinesthologist!
---
### Author:  [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/208 "2006-04-12T01:51:18Z")
I suppose that copy paste job was a massacre. Here’s the link.
[http://physics911.net/spine.htm](http://physics911.net/spine.htm)
---
### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/209 "2006-04-12T01:52:31Z")
> [@Mr. Miskatonic](#):
>
> And yet: Not one Structural Engineer, not even a Civil Engineer. No Failure analyst. No demolition expert.
And as I mentioned (twice) in the GD thread, one demolition expert is against the conspiracy theory.
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### Author:  [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/210 "2006-04-12T01:52:33Z")
So all of these people “have no brains”, even though many of them are highly educated/experienced in fields very relevant to the events of 9/11.
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/211 "2006-04-12T02:02:57Z")
> [@Sent](#):
>
> Here’s an article from an aeuronautical enginner and pilot.
>
> [http://physics911.net/sagadevan.htm](http://physics911.net/sagadevan.htm)
Fact: at least one man from each of the four groups went to a flight school.
Fact: large passenger jets have been flown and landed by people with little experience, with the help of ground personnel.
Question: Is it not possible that the other guys were acting in the capacity that ground personnel would in the case of an incompetent pilot?
---
### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/212 "2006-04-12T02:02:57Z")
> [@Sent](#):
>
> OHere’s an article from an aeuronautical enginner and pilot.
>
> [http://physics911.net/sagadevan.htm](http://physics911.net/sagadevan.htm)
>
> Are any of you pilots? What is your opinion of this?
I can’t speak as a pilot, but Nila Sagadevan tried to press his claims in the USENET groups rec.travel.air & rec.aviation. There were many pilots there and they didn’t think much of this article. Especially this paragraph:
> [@](#):
>
> Burlingame was a tough, burly, ex-Vietnam F4 fighter jock who had flown over 100 combat missions. Every pilot who knows him says that rather than politely hand over the controls, Burlingame would have instantly rolled the plane on its back so that Hanjour would have broken his neck when he hit the floor. But let’s ignore this almost instinctual reaction expected of a fighter pilot and proceed with the charade.
This is not how you would handle a hijacker in pre-9/11 era. Killing or risking several passengers for what was (then) likely to be merely a hostage situation. Stupid, unbelievably stupid. If this was such a standard manuever, why was it never used?
You can google groups Nila’s name for more on the matter.
Also, there is evidence that the pilots weren’t as bad as the CTs would have us beleive. Hanjour recieved his commercial pilots liscence, they don’t just hand that out for being persistantly bad.
---
### Author:  [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/213 "2006-04-12T02:03:33Z")
Appeal to Authority. Sorry, already rejected as a logical fallacy.
Which of the people you listed actually had any role in the investigation of the 9/11 attacks? What is the relevance of qualifications such as “web designer”, “author/activist”, or professor of Biology, to their ability to judge the accuracy or truthfulness of the events reported, particularly if they have had no direct access to primary evidence from the attacks?
Note: videos purchased on the Internet are not generally considered sources of primary evidence.
---
### Author:  [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/214 "2006-04-12T02:05:47Z")
Referring to **Sent** ’s last post,in case that wasn’t clear.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/215 "2006-04-12T02:06:22Z")
> [@Sent](#):
>
> So all of these people “have no brains”, even though many of them are highly educated/experienced in fields very relevant to the events of 9/11.
Highly educated doesn’t mean much if you aren’t in a relevant field, and they aren’t. Physics professors are not structural engineers and the rest of them fall even furhter from that mark.
This is a big old appeal to authority fallacy.
---
### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/216 "2006-04-12T02:15:46Z")
> [@Sent](#):
>
> So all of these people “have no brains”, even though many of them are highly educated/experienced in fields very relevant to the events of 9/11.
How are chemists relevant to 9/11?
Biologists?
A web designer?
A webmaster?
An author/activist?
An instructional design systems engineer?
A kinesiologist?
An architect?
A computer scientist?
Physicists (at least one of whom was censured by his employer)?
Aerospace engineers?
A cellphone engineer?
A quality engineer (who was censured and then fired by his employer for misrepresenting himself and his company)?
An economist?
A forensic pathologist?
Statisticians?
An IT manager?
A respiritory therapist?
An Air Force colonel? How do you know he’s not been planted to spread disinformation?
---
### Author:  [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/217 "2006-04-12T02:21:51Z")
I wasn’t “appealing to authority”. That’s what I keep hearing on this forum all night and day though, are appeals to authority. I was merely responding to claims made against me that no one except crazy conspiracy theorists would believe in conspiracy involving 9/11.
> [@](#):
>
> Burlingame was a tough, burly, ex-Vietnam F4 fighter jock who had flown over 100 combat missions. Every pilot who knows him says that rather than politely hand over the controls, Burlingame would have instantly rolled the plane on its back so that Hanjour would have broken his neck when he hit the floor. But let’s ignore this almost instinctual reaction expected of a fighter pilot and proceed with the charade.
You didn’t address Nila’s claims at all. I guess you’d like to leave that to other people, so you won’t have to think about it. You pull the weakest, most subjective argument out of an article filled with strong arguments. What about the rest? How did the plane even fly along the ground at those speeds? How did this guy pull it off, when even senior commercial airline pilots couldn’t do it? Are you suggesting that with very little if any training, he miraculously became competent? Is your claim that Allah was on his side? Luck doesn’t cut it, when the luck is that big. What about the consensus among FAA people that it looked like the manevours of a fighter jet?
> [@Luke Skywatcher](#):
>
> Fact: at least one man from each of the four groups went to a flight school.
You are ignoring what _the people in those flight schools had to say about them! That they were horrible pilots._ Are you disputing the actual testimony of the poeple of the flight schools?
> [@](#):
>
> Fact: large passenger jets have been flown and landed by people with little experience, with the help of ground personnel.
Landed _how? Along the ground at 500 mph into the Pentagon with fighter plane maneuvers?_
> [@](#):
>
> Question: Is it not possible that the other guys were acting in the capacity that ground personnel would in the case of an incompetent pilot?
How did Hanjour who according to his flight school instructor “could not fly” pull of the maneuver he allegedly did? A maneuver that not only could not be performed by senior pilots in simulators but also defied the laws of aeurodynamics?
---
### Author:  [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/218 "2006-04-12T02:23:31Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#):
>
> A quality engineer (who was censured and then fired by his employer for misrepresenting himself and his company)?
I believe who was fired for blowing the whistle on the bad science of his employers.
---
### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/219 "2006-04-12T02:30:37Z")
> [@Sent](#):
>
> I believe who was fired for blowing the whistle on the bad science of his employers.
How could he blow the whistle on something _neither he nor his employer was even involved in?_
---
### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2006, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-two-loons/351934/220 "2006-04-12T02:39:29Z")
> [@Sent](#):
>
> I wasn’t “appealing to authority”. That’s what I keep hearing on this forum all night and day though, are appeals to authority. I was merely responding to claims made against me that no one except crazy conspiracy theorists would believe in conspiracy involving 9/11.
Having an education does not make one not a fool or an idiot.
> [@](#):
>
> You didn’t address Nila’s claims at all. I guess you’d like to leave that to other people, so you won’t have to think about it.
I leave it to other people since I am not a pilot and am really not qualified to fully judge his claims. But I have seen what other pilots have said about his comments and I cannot say I am impressed with how his comments have stood up to their criticism.
> [@](#):
>
> You pull the weakest, most subjective argument out of an article filled with strong arguments.
Can you honestly judge them to be strong arguements? As for attacking the weakest part, one pilot commented that to make such a comment would mean he has no real qualifications to fly a heavier craft.
> [@](#):
>
> What about the rest? How did the plane even fly along the ground at those speeds? How did this guy pull it off, when even senior commercial airline pilots couldn’t do it?
Pilots have told me that it is not very hard to do. Not incredibly easy, but not very hard either. This ignores the fact that Hanjour actually hit the ground first as well.
> [@](#):
>
> Are you suggesting that with very little if any training, he miraculously became competent?
Excuse me, but Hanjour had plenty of training. Perhaps if you looked a bit beyond the nutter websites you would have seen that he actually qualifed for a commercial pilot’s liscence:
[http://911myths.com/html/flight\_school\_dropouts.html](http://911myths.com/html/flight_school_dropouts.html)
> [@](#):
>
> Is your claim that Allah was on his side? Luck doesn’t cut it, when the luck is that big. What about the consensus among FAA people that it looked like the manevours of a fighter jet?
What consensus is that? Flying a plane into the Pentagon is not a figher jet manuever.
> [@](#):
>
> You are ignoring what _the people in those flight schools had to say about them! That they were horrible pilots._ Are you disputing the actual testimony of the poeple of the flight schools?
I am disputing that the comments are the only relevant things.
[http://911myths.com/html/flight\_school\_dropouts.html](http://911myths.com/html/flight_school_dropouts.html)
> [@](#):
>
> Landed _how? Along the ground at 500 mph into the Pentagon with fighter plane maneuvers?_
Flying in a straight line is not really a fighter plane manuever.
> [@](#):
>
> How did Hanjour who according to his flight school instructor “could not fly” pull of the maneuver he allegedly did? A maneuver that not only could not be performed by senior pilots in simulators but also defied the laws of aeurodynamics?
\<…\>
Do you realise what you just said?
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