To the woman down the hall who's "allergic" to the soap in the ladies' room...

[Green_Cymbeline]

@Zabali_Clawbane

I scrub under my fingernails when I wash my hands, especially if I’m washing them before I eat. I soap to the middle of my wrists often, (to the base of my palms at the least) and get in between my fingers, I’d say the non antibacterial soap (usually) I use is on my hands for 20 to 30 seconds. I consider it time well spent. You do make a good point thoughyou with the face , not everyone does.

Daaaaammmmnnn, Zabali, are you having your meals in the OR? What do you think you are accomplishing by this? Do you eat with your hands? If this is so necessary for your health, how is it that I stay healthy when I don’t do a surgical scrub each time I eat? Or maybe it’s just for your “psychological comfort…”

@Zabali_Clawbane

Still, is it any less nice on the part of the “non handwashers” to NOT offer the “psychological comfort” of doing so? Isn’t it a somewhat “nasty” uncaring attitude in a way? I’m speaking of courtesy here, not so much whether it’s sanitary or not.

It is not my responsibility to worry about your psychological comfort, sorry.

@yosemite

What do you think they won’t want to do? Lick my clothing? I mean really.

What do you want to do, lick my hands??

By the way, yosemite, I thought it was “Back to Cafe Society” for you??

[lezlers]

[QUOTE=you with the face]

If I may hazard a guess, yosemite, it’s because we can see trash with the naked eye. People complain about it not because it is gross and nasty (in a clinical, health-threatening sense), but because candy wrappers, wads of newspaper, and crushed soda cans are unpleasant to see in the middle of the street. It doesn’t take a lot of imagination to see the results of trash or its negative consequences. It doesn’t matter if its a soiled diaper or a used tire.[/quoe]

Ex-fucking-actly. Saying something to someone who waltzed out of the bathroom leaving a toilet full of crap is a helluva lot different than grilling someone for not washing their hands. To even have to explain that difference is ridiculous.

The crime involved with not washing one’s hands, on the other hand, is not quite so macroscopic. Furthermore, it is pretty invasive of a stranger (or even an acquaintance) to demand an explanation for somebody not washing their hands when they are not privy to all the facts, and I think this was what lezlers and others have been saying. It’s pretty obvious when someone is littering. You clearly see evidence.

THANK YOU! That’s exactly what I’ve been saying. It is very invasive of a stranger to demand an explanation for somebody not washing their hands. It’s a personal matter. Not flushing a toilet or flinging feces around the restroom is an obvious act, totally socially unacceptable and blatently affects everyone using that restroom. They’ve got to stare at the unflushed toilet. They’ve got to run screaming from the feces incrusted restroom. Those are blatent, obvious and immediate consequences. Someone not washing their hands does not pose even remotely similar consequences.

A few times I’ve dashed into a stall to make adjustments to my clothing (e.g. straighten my nametag, tighten my bra strap) and I’ll be damned if I’m going to go through the hand washing ritual just to appease a few bacteriaphobes who pay way too much attention to what other people are doing in the restroom. Granted, I still may wash my hands out of habit or because I think the door handle felt kind of slimy. But if I choose not to wash my hands, why should I not feel rightfully insulted by somebody asking (in a demanding way) “Why aren’t you washing your hands?” Uh, maybe because I’m grown-ass woman who is capable of deciding when washing my hands is necessary and when it is not? Why are you even talking to me? Unless there’s toilet paper hanging off my shoe and you’re nicely pointing it out to me, get the hell out of my face.

Once again, thank you. Restroom behavior is an odd thing. It’s sort of an unspoken rule that you generally leave others alone. People are taking care of various bodily functions that can in some cases, be sensitive in nature. Therefore, to demand an explanation for someone’s behavior that poses no immediate threat or inconvience to you (that worried? Use some antibacterial gel when you get back to your desk) is totally unnecessary. Note, I’m sticking to an office scenerio here, like the OP. If you’re eating at a resturant and see an employee going to the bathroom and not washing, that’s a bit different. You can’t exactly rub antibacterial gel all over your dinner. Although, if you’ve ever worked in the food service industry, you’d realize that someone not washing after using the bathroom is the least of your hygiene worries when it comes to your food.

Wouldn’t it be rude to say to a perfect stranger who is smoking a cigarette outside, “Why don’t you quit smoking?” Afterall, they are polluting the environment in their small way and posing a risk to public health. They should be respecting your ideas of cleanliness and healthiness. How dare they don’t!

Man, I used to get this all the time when I was a regular smoker. It was annoying as hell. I believe it’s a lot more comparable to the concept being discussed than say, littering. Or smearing snot on a counter. :rolleyes: Although, on these boards, you’re bound to find a very large population of posters that would think this was totally okay. A can 'o worms you may not want to open…

And yosemite, you’re not really one to be questioning the relevance of other’s comparisons with some of the doozies you’ve come out with throughout this thread.

And this:

People have differing standards of cleanliness, and for some to jump on another, gang up, and bait them because they find something repellant IMHO is rather nasty.

Could not have summed up my position any better. I just can’t get the idea of a couple of cheerleaders harassing the school nerd kind of confrontation out of my head when I think of the OP’s situation. It just has that kind of “bullying” vibe to it.

[ruadh]

@chula

This point was already raised, but if your main worry is catching her cold, why are you worried about her washing her hands after she uses the toilet? It’s not her genital region that is infected with the cold.

Going to the toilet poses an extra opportunity for her to spread her germs because of the number of things she has to touch along the way (not just the toilet/stall apparatus but the three doors between there and the offices which I mentioned earlier).

And it’s a bit unrealistic to wash your hands every time you sneeze or wipe your nose, even if it would happen in an ideal world.

Agreed, which is why I said earlier that I do not do (or expect others to do!) this.

You never explained to us how you knew that this woman had a cold. As was pointed out, allergies can also cause you to sniff and sneeze.

As was pointed out, we work on the same floor. We do talk to each other. We are not “strangers”, despite the repeated attempts by many of you to portray this as a case of badgering strangers about their washing habits.

Actually, I think the best solution to this problem is for employers to provide more paid sickdays and encourage people to take them.

Oh, I agree. And her boss is notorious for insisting she work even when she’s absolutely dying. I have sympathy for her for that, but it doesn’t excuse her not taking basic steps to prevent spreading her colds to others.

[ruadh]

@nyctea scandiaca

Wait a sec…so you wash your hands after peeing but not after blowing your nose?

See reply to chula above. …

Also, I am dying to know, ruadh and yosemite, do you ever kiss someone? Have sex? Go camping or backpacking?

Amazing, the logical leaps you can make from “people with colds should wash their hands” :rolleyes:

[ioioio]

I don’t think we are arguing in this thread about the need to wash one’s hands after using the bathroom. Everyone agrees that it’s a good idea. There is a poster or two still holding out the argument that “urine is sterile”; this issue was resolved in the first cite posted. Please read it if you don’t understand that:

[ol]
[li]The purpose of washing is not to get pee off your hands.[/li][li]No amount of washing will make you clean.[/li][li]You have to do it anyway[/li][/ol]

This cite also addresses the sexual intimacy question.

A few posters have stated that they wash their hands after shaking hands, touching money, and other common human exchanges. This behavior doesn’t hurt anyone and is no reason for name calling or personal attacks.

Debate is still open as to whether or not it is acceptable to say something to someone who fails to wash their hands after using the toilet.

I worked for 8 years with a woman whom I encountered in the bathroom many times, and not once did she wash her hands. I never said anything, nor did anyone else as far as I know. I wish someone had (kindly). Many of the non-washer’s coworkers avoided her, avoided going into her office, avoided touching papers she brought to meetings, etc. Her choice affected her ability to do her job; this could have been remedied if someone had been brave enough to tell her why. Ten years after leaving that company, I still think of that woman with a shudder.

[ioioio]

I’ve opened a new Pit thread, Company’s sick leave policy, if anyone would care to join me in bitching and moaning about being forced to go into work sick.

[chula]

@ruadh

Going to the toilet poses an extra opportunity for her to spread her germs because of the number of things she has to touch along the way (not just the toilet/stall apparatus but the three doors between there and the offices which I mentioned earlier).

So you expect her to wash her hands before she touches the bathroom doors. How is she supposed to do that?

[ruadh]

Um, exactly the same way I did it when I left the bathroom five minutes ago

[chula]

@ruadh

Um, exactly the same way I did it when I left the bathroom five minutes ago

You washed them before you left the bathroom, but did you wash them before you entered? On the way to the bathroom you touched things with your nasty germy hands that other people have to touch.

[ruadh]

No I didn’t, actually. As I posted earlier, the doors have to be pulled open when leaving the bathroom which means they are pushed open on the way in. I open them with my knee or by leaning against them, my hands don’t touch them at all.

[you_with_the_face]

by yosemite

What do you think they won’t want to do? Lick my clothing? I mean really.

I mean really indeed, if you can say that in one instance of questionable hygiene but can’t in another.

yosemite, you don’t find it a tad bit hypocritical to attribute spiteful adjectives to someone because they don’t wash their hands, when you eat, play, and sleep among shit-frollicking beasts who clean themselves with fishy spit? Answer this honestly and put aside the “how dare non-hand-washers threaten public health!” indignation. The reason I’m responding to you is not because I’m an opponent of hand washing. It’s because there is a judgemental tone to your posts that’s makes you come across in a self-righteous way.

By the way, where are the cites indicating that anyone who comes from a cat-owning home should wear sterilized clothing out in public in order to not infect other people with disease? Are these cites as common as the ones about washing hands?

Washing your hands is the last line of defense (unless, of course, you count the immune system) from infection. This is not in debate (for the upteenth time). What is in debate is whether or not people should appoint themselves as members of the Anti-Filth and Nastiness Commission in public environments. Another relevant item of discussion concerns the prudence of judging the practices of others without A) knowing all the facts, B) appraising the issue pragmatically (meaning, without the emotional ewwww! component), and © removing the beam from thine own eye first.

I tried to illustrate to you with the example about smoking, and you (willfully?) don’t get it. A smoker minding his own business may be causing a small risk to others, but it is considered rude to start demanding him to stop, especially if he is he not breaking any rules. Just because there is a small potential that the behavior of another may affect you, does not give you license to interrogate and humilate them.

by ywtf
If you wash your hands like the average Joe does, then you are not contributing much to the War on Biological Terror. If you realize this, then you will also realize that the actions of a few less hygienically observant people have little impact on your physical well-being. Most people aren’t doing it right anyway, so what’s the point of having so much wrath towards those who do not? Perspective and risk assessment: Keys to good mental health.

yosemite:
So what’s your point? No one should say anything about anything?

If you are so concerned about it, post signs in the restroom on your office floor. Maybe even leave them on the inside of stall doors (“Friendly reminder! Don’t Forget to Wash Those Hands!”) Leave pamphlets around promoting the importance of proper hand-washing. Tell managment that it is an issue that might be good to raise at the next staff meeting (“It’s been brought to my attention…”). Something like that. You know, public education. Spreading the good news. It’s probably a lot more effective than shaming individuals in the john with raised eyebrows or loaded questioning, and you won’t have to worry about being accused of rude behavior. It’s nice how it all works out in the end, isn’t it?

Why is the government and all these health officials even bothering? It’s obviously not making any difference and it’s just upsetting people to be reminded.

The surgeon general advising people to reduce their consumption of junk food is not the same thing as you telling a random stranger to throw away their Snickers bar. The CDC warning people of the dangers of smoking is different than you demanding someone to snuff out their cigarette. The USDA distributing information about the benefits of proper hand-washing is different than you stopping an adult in the restroom (when you don’t have all the facts) and telling them to wash their hands. Especially when your real motivation is not all these cites you keep pointing to, but because of a PINWORMS!!! obsession.

Is it getting any clearer?

[Zabali_Clawbane]

@nyctea scandiaca

Daaaaammmmnnn, Zabali, are you having your meals in the OR? What do you think you are accomplishing by this? Do you eat with your hands? If this is so necessary for your health, how is it that I stay healthy when I don’t do a surgical scrub each time I eat? Or maybe it’s just for your “psychological comfort…”

It is not my responsibility to worry about your psychological comfort, sorry.
<snip>

Actually, it’s 2 reasons. My mom was old fashioned, and this is how she taught me to wash my hands. I even keep a fingernail brush at home, and use it. Also, I have rheumathiod arthritis, which weakens my immune system. I get sick easier than other folks. (Flu season while I was in school was never fun.) I’m not supposed to be around newly immunized babies for Og’s sake, because I might get sick if the vaccine was the live kind. This isn’t my paranoia, this is what the doctor told me, and what the handout said when I was getting my baby immunized. (Once I became aware of this, I asked that dead vaccines be used.)

Nice to see where I’d stand with you, glad I’m not anywhere near you, not counting this message board. IMO, you are pretty cold, with very little if any remorse for the distress you cause. This inferred from the way you turned around right away and started snapping your teeth at me, since I’d said people’s behavior was nasty, and it was at the time. (And you’re not sorry a bit, that you make people uncomfortable.) You’re being nasty, and not caring who you lash out at now. (And FTR, I stated an opinion that was on the middle ground of the arguement here.) Some people have good reasons for what they do. Why not accept this, and move on? Why give them grief about it, and mock them?

As I said before, I don’t expect all others to be as thorough as I am. I do expect that food service people, and people who work in medical feilds will be as thorough after using the bathroom, or treating a patient though, at least while performing their job duties. I’m willing to take it on faith that they are however.

It would take something pretty extreme for me to ask them to wash their hands at the fast food place I was at. I have asked my nurse to wash up before messing with my I.V. line last October while I was recovering from surgery, this was because I knew she’d just cared for another patient in the room beside me. (She’d told me she’d get to me after them.) She didn’t seem to mind, I was polite, and she did wash up before she put gloves on.

At least ywtf seems to get what I meant. Adjusting your slip is one thing, using the toilet another. I have no problem with the philosphy ywtf stated, that’s fine by me. I have to be fastidious, to try not to get sick so much, or to not make others sick. I wash my hands if I sneeze into them, I wash my hands if I use the toilet. I wash my hands before I cook, and if I touch my face/hair or sneeze into them while cooking I wash them again. I also wash my hands before I eat, especially if I’ve paid for fast food. I actually came out somewhere in the middle between the two opposing sides, but leaning towards being civil, and showing courtesy by washing your hands. I pointed out, that at least respecting others differences was a “courteous” thing to do. At least someone understood what I was saying. Can’t you all accept that others feel differently and let this arguement go?

[yosemite]

Okay, I’ve been staying in Cafe Society but I’ve broken down and I’ll make one last post. After that, back to Cafe Society and y’all can just thrash around without me.

I’m sick of people stretching what I’m saying into something else, especially when I keep on having to fricking repeat it over and over and over, all to no avial.

Look. We’re talking about someone doing something that is close to 100% obvious, right in front of your eyes. Not about what they might do and you’re assuming, we’re not talking about what they do at home, not about how they keep their house at home (that you don’t really know because you’ve never seen), how many “dirty” pets they have at home, not any of that. Just what you see right in front of you.

And we’re also talking about something that is really obvious. Not that you’re looking for it, not that it’s on your mind and you’re the “hand washing police,” always aware and noticing. I’ve never noticed something not washing their hands because I’m not looking for it as a general rule. In all my life, I can’t say I’ve noticed and have never said anything to anyone. So I guess with my current track record, they’d have to be pretty obvious for me to notice, now wouldn’t they?

We’re also not talking about what someone does to themselves, like eating fast food or smoking. Because those things don’t give other people diseases with a few exposures. Those things only affect that person in any immediate way—not anyone else. I can be around a person smoking for a few seconds and I know that I’m not going to come down with something the next day from it. Furthermore, that smoking person is mostly a threat to some super sensitive person as they are smoking, not 4 hours later. They don’t leave invisible “smoking cooties” everywhere, spreading something akin to SARS. A sensitive person can see the smoker smoking and avoid. You can’t avoid what you can’t see or smell.

And sheesh, how many cites do I have to give about the PINWORMS to indicate that I know that not everyone gets them? "Sure, you probably won’t get them, but . . . " I’ve stated that from the VERY FIRST FRICKIN’ POST I EVER WROTE ABOUT THEM. I’ve made it very clear what the risks were: mostly around small children and rest homes, but that sure, anyone can get them. I gave cites that backed this information up but they were summarily ignored. I also made no secret of the fact that I don’t worry about them so much now because I’m no longer at the workplace where they were common. Sheesh, why do I even bother, when it seems like no one even reads what I write because they’re too busy assuming they know my meaning!

I brought them up as a dramatic illustration of something invisible that you can catch from others’ dirty hands. I have first-hand knowledge of them, which is why I discussed them at length. (And yes, they do leave a vivid impression, don’t they? ;)) But they’re the tip of the iceberg when it comes the cooties you can get from dirty hands and I have also said that. Several times. But, Oh GOD FORBID anyone read what I’ve actually written. Because that would be too simple, wouldn’t it?

[yosemite]

(Anti-climatic little post script)

Another thing I forgot to mention: This is not about someone’s hygene at home. Don’t care how they are at home, which I’ve also said previously. (But oh well, why bother to say these things, when they’ll be ignored anyway?) If they have a dusty house or a house full of birds or cats or dogs but they wash any bird/dog/cat cooties off their hands before they touch public door handles or counter tops, what does it matter how many critters (or other “dirty” things) they have at home? Washed is washed.

Okay, this is it for real. Cafe Society awaits!

[lezlers]

So yosemite,

Does that cross you’ve hammered yourself to come with a sink to wash up in?

[chula]

@Zabali_Clawbane

Nice to see where I’d stand with you, glad I’m not anywhere near you, not counting this message board. IMO, you are pretty cold, with very little if any remorse for the distress you cause. This inferred from the way you turned around right away and started snapping your teeth at me, since I’d said people’s behavior was nasty, and it was at the time. (And you’re not sorry a bit, that you make people uncomfortable.) You’re being nasty, and not caring who you lash out at now. (And FTR, I stated an opinion that was on the middle ground of the arguement here.) Some people have good reasons for what they do. Why not accept this, and move on? Why give them grief about it, and mock them?

Overreact much? How is nyctea scandiaca causing anyone “distress”? Or “snapping [his/her] teeth” or “being nasty” or “lash[ing] out”? S/he questioned your very abnormal habits. Why would s/he assume you had a good reason for it when you didn’t bring it up in the first place?