# To the young woman sitting behind me who said feminists were "man-hating Nazis": **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 2, 2006, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647 "2006-02-02T07:06:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/161 "2006-02-03T18:35:48Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > But the brutal truth is, feminists just plain old asked for it in the 80s, when Dworkin and MacKinnon were widely admired among feminists, Of course, that wouldn’t have been so much of a problem if they hadn’t been so frequently and inaccurately slandered. > [@](#): > > and when all men were portrayed as unconvicted rapists by some feminists, How does the actions of some feminists (and I suspect the percentage who portray all men as unconvicted rapists is pretty darn small) mean that feminists, as a whole, were asking for it? > [@](#): > > and when NOW elected an out lesbian as its president. What in God’s name does that have to do with anything? > [@](#): > > For a while there, it seemed like every time Rush Limbaugh and friends said “Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition” it was the feminists themselves who were handing it to them. There’s a big difference between “there are enough feminists, with a large enough radical fringe, that something stupid and quotable happens once a week or so that Rush can talk about” and “feminists, AS A WHOLE, do something stupid and quotable once a week or so that Rush can talk about”. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/162 "2006-02-03T19:13:37Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > …When I started there, there were but two women. One was a new hire, the other was just quitting because she wanted to be with her kids. The new hire was young, just out of college. Being that the office was mostly male, there was some male-style banter, but nothing terribly offensive. But this chick would get offended at _everything_. I once asked a guy “So did you ever go on a second date with Betsy?” The girl responded with “I think that that sort of sexist talk is inappropriate for the office.” We pretty much had to stop all conversation because we were afraid this babe would slap a harassment suit on us. And she made it pretty clear that she would. She also made it clear that she knew all about this stuff because she recently took a course in woman’s studies. > > And yet, at the office holiday party, she was all flirty (in front of her significant oppressor) with me, and at one point stood so close to me that I could feel her nipples burning holes into my back. > > All talk, no walk. I sure hope she’s mellowed out a bit. I think she seems more like all walk, and no talk. It’s good you never found out, though. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/163 "2006-02-03T20:01:46Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > The message to women is that she loses value to the company because she gave birth. Well, in plain terms, she _has_. She has: - missed x days (or months) at work - put added stress on her co-workers during her time off and to an extent, in the months preceding and following the pregnancy. - has increased the company’s insurance burden - cost the company the wages of whatever temporary help was brought in to fill the gap - put herself in a position where she’s likely to be out sick more often, as well as work fewer hours (late nights, weekends especially) Now, we can argue that businesses should have other priorities than productivity, dependability, and cost, but I don’t know that this is a reasonable expectation across the board. I’m happy that government shields us to an extent in the form of FMLA, but, given the almost complete reproductive freedom that women enjoy in the western world, I don’t see how you can argue that those women that take time out to bear and raise children should be promoted over men and childless women that are willing to put in 60-80 hours a week, travel, etc. And, as I cited earlier, the pool of childless women is fairly small. Of course, a woman has the option to either hire a nanny, or else find a mate that is willing to raise the child after it’s born. But none of that is the company’s problem, is it? I know that this is just a tangent, but I do get a bit tired of the idea that women should have a broad range of choices, and be shielded from any consequence. There are plenty of careers that allow for a seamless meshing of family and work. However, Fortune 500 corporate CEO isn’t one of them. Men have made the trade-off forever, but i don’t think that women ever see it. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/164 "2006-02-03T20:01:50Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > I think she seems more like all walk, and no talk. It’s good you never found out, though. Seriously. I think my strategy of keeping some distance was a sound one. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/165 "2006-02-03T20:22:54Z")
In hindsight, it appears to me that my post might reflect some sort of anti-woman motivation on my part. That is certainly not the case. The feminism issue strikes a nerve, mostly because I, as a guy, considered myself a feminist through much of my high school and college career. Thing is, hanging out with my current officemates, the students at my school, and my friends, it occurs that the response I’d receive upon enumerating my thoughts on feminism and social justice - reproductive empowerment, equal pay for equal work, etc. - would elicit a nod, a yawn, and a “That’s great. What do you want, a cookie?” In so many ways those issues are just so…mainstream. And people that eschew these values are thought of as backward, crass, and relics- as they should be. But the continued thrust of the feminist movement should be wide, not deep. I’d rather see an expansion of women’s freedoms from the West across the globe than sit around discussing if a man can even be a feminist, or whether a hetero woman can be one for that matter. There will always be holdouts- most of the ones I’ve seen are due to religious reasons- but I see their kids, and I know that the tide has shifted- the concept of a partnership, rather than subjugation and drudgery, is just too appealing to modern men and women to be denied. But that takes time. Now, we need to get things moving in underdeveloped countries. but I realize that this is a harder way to go than ranting about what someone chooses to wear, or who they sleep with. ---
**Author:** ![kingrthr3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ad7895/32.png) [@kingrthr3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingrthr3)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/166 "2006-02-03T20:33:23Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > JESUS CHRIST, woman, you certainly think highly of yourself. It’s a wonder you don’t have a nosebleed from that high pedestal you’ve put yourself on. > > So **catsix** would have won the right to vote, to attend college, to be able to control her own reproductive freedom, the right to control her own finances, all by her little ol’ self, because she is obviously SO awesome and so smart and accomplished, that hundreds of years of institutional sexism would have fallen to dust before her very presence. > > Is that right? The irony here is that if **catsix** _had_ accomplished all of this by herself, presumably opening the door for other women as well, she would have been a feminist practically by definition. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/167 "2006-02-03T20:39:56Z")
No, the irony is that by believing she’s entitled to these things, she’s a feminist by definition. > [@The American Heritage Dictionary](#): > > SYLLABICATION: fem·i·nism > PRONUNCIATION: fm-nzm > NOUN: 1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. 2. The movement organized around this belief. > > SYLLABICATION: fem·i·nist > PRONUNCIATION: fm-nst > NOUN: A person whose beliefs and behavior are based on feminism. > ADJECTIVE: Relating to feminism. > OTHER FORMS: femi·nistic —ADJECTIVE ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/168 "2006-02-03T21:57:13Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > No, the irony is that by believing she’s entitled to these things, she’s a feminist by definition. Well, to be pedantic, her motivations have nothing to do with her gender or belief in feminine equality, so she _cannot_ be “feminist by definition” (at least not the one you quoted). It’s vaguely analogous to the “Is Atheism a Faith” argument. **catsix** simply doesn’t identify with any of the feminist motivations. She’s not saying “I’m driven and capable because of (or despite the fact that) I’m a woman”, she’s saying “I’m driven and capable” full stop. Her actions (and perhaps her attitudes) may be consistent with a feminist in a similar situations, but are not rooted in feminist philosophy. Q.E.D. Based on my impressions (correct me if I’m wrong **catsix** ), she doesn’t view her own actions through a feminist or woman’s empowerment lens, so as a result she gets frustrated and irritated by those who seem to be unable to view success/self-worth etc w/o bringing gender into it, and those who use gender as a criteria for their success/self-worth. In that regard, she’s very similar to successful women in the past who were successful but never did so “to strike a blow for women everywhere” but just because they wanted to succeed for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/169 "2006-02-03T22:07:12Z")
Whether or not \*\*catsix \*\* identifies \*with \* her gender, other people identify her \*by \* her gender. Decades, let alone centuries ago, she would have found that to be a real impediment to reaching her personal goals. Nowadays, not so much. That’s because of the people (not just women, incidentally) who worked their asses off to make it so. However, \*\*catsix \*\* apparently believes that she’s such an extraordinary, remarkable person that everything she’s ever achieved has been solely based on her own merit. The entire history of the world has no bearing on the situation \*\*catsix \*\* finds her extraordinary, remarkable self in. \*\*catsix \*\* is an island, outside the stream of time. \*\*catsix \*\* is fucking deluded. ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/170 "2006-02-03T22:31:06Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Whether or not \*\*catsix \*\* identifies \*with \* her gender, other people identify her \*by \* her gender. Decades, let alone centuries ago, she would have found that to be a real impediment to reaching her personal goals. Nowadays, not so much. That’s because of the people (not just women, incidentally) who worked their asses off to make it so. Ahhh, but your definition said: "NOUN: 1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. 2. The movement organized around this belief. SYLLABICATION: fem·i·nist PRONUNCIATION: fm-nst _NOUN: A person whose beliefs and behavior are based on feminism_. " The motivation of the first person is important, hence my reply. I suppose you could argue that since Catsix believes in her ability, and catsix is a woman, she must therefore believe in the ability of women, and therefore is a feminist. But I’m sure that catsix’d believe in herself regardless of her gender, which makes that link to something other than her gender, so the argument still falls apart. But it seems you’re use of “is” was meant extrinsically rather than intrinsically. In the same way that someone from Jamaica with dark skin may be percieved by others as “black”, though in their mind, they self-identify as “Jamaican”. > [@](#): > > However, \*\*catsix \*\* apparently believes that she’s such an extraordinary, remarkable person that everything she’s ever achieved has been solely based on her own merit. The entire history of the world has no bearing on the situation \*\*catsix \*\* finds her extraordinary, remarkable self in. \*\*catsix \*\* is an island, outside the stream of time. \*\*catsix \*\* is fucking deluded. Actually, this is pretty much a strawman, though a convenient one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she made a big noise about being unstoppable, regardless of time and circumstance but that attitude is exactly what would have served her in getting further than the average person. Regardless, I took what she said as hyperbole - something that _occaisonally_ rears its head on this Message Board. But it’s a rotten tactic to use though, because the user invariably spends 6 pages trying to find the line between “You said ALL GEESE WERE WHITE!!! You’re deluded” and “Gawd what a fuckin’ backpeddler”. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/171 "2006-02-03T22:39:23Z")
She doesn’t have to be a feminist-no one is saying that. However, she seems to think that ALL feminists are shrill, man-hating lesbian separatists who want to eliminate men from the species. She went so far to say in thread that the suffragists of the 19th and early 20th century had nothing to do with women having the right to vote-because Congress was made up of MEN. That feminism never achieved ANYTHING. There’s no black or white in her world, none at all, and when we point out the absurdity of this, she ignores it, or justs starts insulting people personally. She has no sense or perspective of history or society. Anyone with a different experience than her is a stupid, whiny, girly victim. Because, you know, since SHE did such and such, everyone else should be able to do it, no problem. And she’s been known to hijack threads to bitch about it. Someone starts a thread about her company’s unfair policies with regards to maternity leave, or sexual harassment, and she comes barging in screeching about how oppressed she’s been at work by other women. She’s completely unreasonable on it, and it’s really fucking annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/172 "2006-02-03T22:49:46Z")
case in point: When **catsix** tried to temper her earlier statements, it was met with this: > [@eleanorigby](#): > > You said earlier that NOTHING would have stopped you getting where you are today. So, let’s have none of this namby-pamby “How far I would have gotten is something I can’t tell you.” stuff. catsix -leader of the free world circa 1860(or 1960). Dream on. It’s always lovely to put your opponent in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don’t position. I know it gets _me_ hard. Despite this, hyperbole is still an accepted tool. Whether or not you get away with it though depends on the good will of your “opponents”, and while I don’t share the attitude, clearly people don’t have a lot of goodwill left in stock for **catsix**. Probably has something to do with the self-assured, no-bullshit attitude that would have had her doing laundry her whole life back in 1860. Hey - I think that there are things that **catsix** said that are a bit beyond the pale, some of them summed up by **Guin** ’s most recent post (yay preview). . . I guess I’m just willing to let some points go as “for dramatic effect” and share her amusement in the notion (paraphrased) that she’d have to be helped by powerful women, but couldn’t concievably _be_ one (another point that was railroaded) by her detractors. Of course, I’m fully cognizant that this has become another “catsix vs. the SDMB” thread, which is what pisses **Guin** off. so I’ll remove my oxygen from this flame. Have a great weekend folks. . . ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/173 "2006-02-03T22:53:18Z")
\*\*Catsix \*\* you are standing on the shoulders of giants and pissing all over them. Until the mid-70s unmarried women were routinely refused credit cards. In 1966 96% of lawyers, 93% of doctors and 99% of judges were men. Some of the first women to graduate from their medical schools are still in practice. The fact that what happened just a generation ago seems like ancient history to you just shows what giants they were. They turned the world on its head. For your stupid solipstic unworthy fucking ass. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/174 "2006-02-03T23:03:49Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > The fact that what happened just a generation ago seems like ancient history to you just shows what giants they were. They turned the world on its head. For your stupid solipstic unworthy fucking ass. I think they turned the world on its head because they just wanted real jobs and credit cards. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/175 "2006-02-03T23:10:29Z")
My mom left her husband in the early sixties, went work as an RN. Always had her own car. Her own bank account, credit card. Bought her own house around '71, no co-signers or anything. She had it tough being a single parent, but I don’t remember her ever once telling me she had a problem because of being a woman. I don’t remember her once ever referring to herself as a feminist, although she was very proud of her right to vote and all that. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/176 "2006-02-03T23:23:26Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > My mom left her husband in the early sixties, went work as an RN. Always had her own car. Her own bank account, credit card. Bought her own house around '71, no co-signers or anything. She had it tough being a single parent, but I don’t remember her ever once telling me she had a problem because of being a woman. I don’t remember her once ever referring to herself as a feminist, although she was very proud of her right to vote and all that. Well at least we’ve cleared up the controversy over whether nurses were a rarity in the 60s. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/177 "2006-02-03T23:27:25Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > I think they turned the world on its head because they just wanted real jobs and credit cards. That too. But I’m astonished how well they succeeded. In a weird way idiots like catsix are proof of their success. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/178 "2006-02-03T23:29:58Z")
> [@](#): > > **Misery Loves Co.** said: > Based on my impressions (correct me if I’m wrong catsix), she doesn’t view her own actions through a feminist or woman’s empowerment lens, so as a result she gets frustrated and irritated by those who seem to be unable to view success/self-worth etc w/o bringing gender into it, and those who use gender as a criteria for their success/self-worth. I really dislike the word ‘empowerment’. I usually hear it from people who want to ‘be empowered’. As if power comes from someone else, and it’s a gift that you have to wait for them to give you. I figure if you want it, take it. I also, unlike a lot of people, am not particularly attached to gender. I don’t have a strong sense of gender identity and never did. If I woke up tomorrow and I had a penis, I can’t say it’d bother me much. I’d go into the other bathroom. Because of that, it’s practically impossible for me to tie success and failure to my gender in the way that feminism does. I don’t think ‘I am a woman.’ I think ‘I am a person.’ > [@](#): > > In that regard, she’s very similar to successful women in the past who were successful but never did so “to strike a blow for women everywhere” but just because they wanted to succeed for themselves. You’re absolutely right. I’m the kind of selfish person who does something because it will benefit me. Any benefit to others is predominantly a side effect, unless I’m doing something nice for someone I personally care about and even then that tends to be done because of the feeling it gives me more than what it does for them. > [@](#): > > But I’m sure that catsix’d believe in herself regardless of her gender, which makes that link to something other than her gender, so the argument still falls apart. Especially since I’m not really attached to my gender. > [@](#): > > **Maeglin** said: > I think they turned the world on its head because they just wanted real jobs and credit cards. That’s what I’m sayin. I don’t think it’s necessary (or that it was the case that all these people had) to have lofty goals about gender in order to make something happen. Sometimes you’re just selfish enough to keep fucking screaming your head off until you get your credit card, and progress happens as a side effect. Why’s it gotta be ‘feminists’ I’m supposed to be thanking left and right? I don’t think thanking ‘feminists’ is going to do any good, because I don’t think those who fought then have anything whatever to do with the original fight no matter how much they want to claim these victories as their own and the fighters as their sisters. Modern feminism seems to have as much right to say Alice Paul is at its roots as the Westboro Baptist Church has to say that Jesus Christ is at its. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/179 "2006-02-04T00:41:47Z")
No one said you should be thanking feminists right and left. We’re saying stop attacking them and accusing all feminists of being man-hating freaks. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647/180 "2006-02-04T00:59:21Z")
That’s not going to happen, **Guinastasia**. My opinion is not going to change regarding feminism. Especially since every cite I provided has been completely ignored by those who think feminism is an honorable movement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-the-young-woman-sitting-behind-me-who-said-feminists-were-man-hating-nazis/342647.md?page=10)