As an Australian, Bush. We believed Bush when he went into Iraq. Bush utterly devastated the US’s prestige, credibility, and ‘standing’. Europe and the UK were dragged in too – with huge domestic political consequences. Merkel thinks the US is a threat? Why does she think the US is a threat? Because she’s already learned that a stupid American President can take the world to war.
Both were/are destructive for different reasons. Bush is part of the reason why we have Trump. His policies destroyed confidence in mainstream conservatism and have given credence to a more extreme alternative, so there’s no question that Bush’s legacy is a negative one. But what Trump is doing now is fundamentally redefining what this country is at its core. He’s offering a new value system to this country’s politics, and that will have long-lasting and harsh consequences. Moreover, his policies are essentially conceding America’s influence on global politics in many areas, which will undoubtedly tempt bad actors to fill the vacuum. Bush is bad, but Trump is worse - way worse.
Do we really have to choose? Republicans are showing that they aren’t any better at picking presidential nominees than they are at staying out of other people’s business. As far as I’m concerned they were/are BOTH horrible - but Angry Lid’l’ Donny is making me forget all the different things that “Dubya” did that made me think that HE was the worst Prez in U.S. history. Way to go, Repubes - (I ask again) “What’re you gonna come up with next as a nominee for Prez?” (Don’t bother answering - I don’t want to think about it)
there’s no question that trump is the more odious human being. Which is the worse president is a hard call.
Yeah, several years ago I visited Austria. And it was interesting seeing a place that had been the center of the world, and is now a backwater. There were lots of reminders of how important the capital of the holy Roman empire, really, the center of Europe, used to be. And now? It’s got a lot of nice art and pretty buildings. Lots of history, some more depressing than other.
That’s where I see the US headed, and trump is why.
It’s not just our moral standing or political leadership. Trump’s immigration policy is killing higher education. The best and brightest Chinese are going to graduate school in China, not the US, and colleges are already failing due to the reduced revenue. And that’s going to feed into our industry going forward (or not feed into it, really.) China is poised to replace is as a technology leader. It’s already taken the lead in manufacturing. That’s obviously not all trump, but he’s accelerated the process, possibly by decades.
But Bush did kill a lot of people. Which is worse, destroying your own country, or killing thousands of Innocents? Oh, and there was the torture, and the Patriot act. Bush certainly created the path for trump to follow.
I’m leaning towards Bush, but it’s not an easy call.
One of the many falatious arguments Trump used to get elected was that the FBI and the NSA had been wrong on Irak, so they could not be trusted when they said he was a liar, a moron and a traitor (those are not the words the FBI and the NSA used, but you get the general idea). So it could be argued that without Bush there would be no Trump in power. Still Trump is the more dispecable of the two, IMHO.
One more thing: as of today, it seems impossible that Bush ever ends up in prison for what he did as a president or to become one, Trump still might. The former is a pity, the latter I very much hope so.
This is a very tough choice. It’s awfully close.
I think Bush has been a worse president, but I still hate Trump more.
At least with Bush, the rest of the whole world didn’t hate us. As a matter of fact, quite a few of them went right over the cliff with us.
My policy is never vote in a public poll. But I’ll tell you here it’s Trump. This is a little like asking who was worse, Hitler or Mussolini?
This is interesting. The poll has been remarkably stable at about 3:1 in “favor” of Trump. I haven’t bothered to count, but the comments seem more evenly split.
I have to go with Bush on this one. The disastrous Iraq war, and it’s ramifications for the domestic economy, IMO dwarfs anything negative Trump has actually accomplished so far. Not for lack of trying on Trump’s part, you understand; he’s just been rather spectacularly incompetent at adhering to the evil genius job description, and at selecting effective, efficient henchmen. He’s fortunate he didn’t have Cheney as Veep; he’d probably have gotten himself chained up in the White House basement, or an ‘accidental’ shotgun discharge to the face (with something more substantial than bird shot) by now.
I think the poll is very revealing actually. I think it can be argued with facts and statistics that Bush undoubtedly damaged the United States and the world at large far more than Trump.
However people find Donald Trump the person far more disgusting and reprehensible than Bush as a human being despite the fact that I don’t think Trump has caused nearly the damage that Bush did during his two terms as president.
Also I don’t think that Trump has fundamentally changed the political system or the way politics is conducted in the United States, he is a symptom, rather than the cause of the current political situation and I have seen that some Democratic candidates are following suit with Trump in this new political environment. We’ve been headed down this road a long time, and only now are the chickens coming home to roost.
It didn’t have to be Trump that changed the status quo, but he read the bones as they fell, and took advantage of the environment. It was a perfect example of right time, right place.
We’re fortunate too. Trump with a coolly efficient political operator pushing his malformed ideas to completion would be even more terrifying than our current reality.
Speaking of which, what the hell does Mike Pence do? He pops up here and there to deliver a speech or something, but compared to our last three VPs, Pence seems to me to be a relative hermit.
Just because it’s not the capital of the Holy Roman Empire which has not existed for hundreds of years, doesn’t mean it’s a “backwater.” Austria is better off right now than it has ever been at any point in history.
I can’t believe that I am actually defending “Dubya” (which I am, in a way) but I’m afraid I have to agree with you on this.
Both absolutely terrible. Those who are opining that “Dubya” did more to actually harm people than Donny Dimwit has? Just give D.D. more time (which he will have since morals- and ethics-free Republicans in the Senate will NEVER convict him IF the House Dems decide to impeach 'im).
I long ago gave up in trusting Republicans to provide us all with a reasonable, competent presidential candidate. I don’t see that changing any time soon.
Trump must be doing a VERY bad job, as apparently under his leadership edumacational standards have dropped so far that people are unable to count to 28.
I’m sure it’s a nice enough place to live. But what’s it important to? You don’t hear about the Austrian elections, or how they will change EU strategy. You don’t hear about scientific or medical breakthroughs out of Austria. You rarely hear about Austria at all. Well, I don’t, anyway.
Compared to what it was, yes, it’s a backwater. It was overtaken by Berlin when the Austro-Hungarian empire folded, and Vienna is just the capital of Austria, not an entire central European empire. When I was in Vienna in 1973 for a language course I was struck by the fact that it had far more of a post-imperial ambience than London did, and had a feel of being a museum city.
Austria better off today? Surely it would have been relatively richeu with an empire at its disposal? Otherwise you could say that just every European co8ntry is better off, since AFAIK none of them are currently occupied by somebody else, and that was definitely not the case in the past.
What you hear about any country depends greatly on what you look out for. Austria generally does not hit the news often, like all small countries. Politically, you can be titilalled by the Strache affair and the forthcoming elections. No men est omen. The current chancellor is called Kurz, meaning short. As in his term in office, probably.
Trump wins 3 to 1 against Dubya? I’ll give another vote for Dubya to help even things up. Not because I love the First Cockatoo, but mainly because he hasn’t started any wars. Yet? If ho does, I’ll back-pedal furiously and change my vote.
It’s a tough call, but Dubya actually started some wars and got the Patriot Act through. Trump owes so much to Dubya, and so does the world. The question in my mind is whether Trump will be the worse in the long run and that he has set things in motion that will not be obvious for a while but then cause a blow-up. His “diplomacy”, for one.
As someone pointed out above, the damage that Trump has done gets more attention but it’s more superficial and cosmetic. The economy is still good, Trump hasn’t started any major foreign wars, etc. Trump vs. Bush is the difference between a visible skin rash and a hidden deep cancerous tumor.
Bush may have started a war, but Trump ended one. I guess we should be grateful that it took so little bloodshed to put a Russian puppet government in place?