# To those LOTR fans who hate Jackson's LOTR cycle, how would YOU have done it better? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 31, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300 "2008-12-31T00:38:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/41 "2008-12-31T15:40:29Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > You realize that both John Howe and Alan Lee, longtime JRRT illustrators, were very much involved in the art design? They and the guys who adapted their work did an excellent job by me. Hello Mr. **DiFool** , hope things are going well on New Year’s Eve. Artists were, of course, involved in Jackson’s LOTR. The two you mention were unknown to me, so we googled. John Howe’s imagery is just okay, seems to jump around stylistically, and did not (to my eyes) have much effect on the the style of the film. > **[Contact](https://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/gallery/details.php?image_id=95)** > > Visit the post for more. The Alan Lee LOTR pictures I found use hardly any color at all. Maybe he can use it brilliantly, but the sample I saw were dreary, both in and out of Mordor. His vision of orcs certainly didn’t translate to the movie. > **[TOLKIEN PRINTS SIGNED BY ARTIST ALAN LEE](https://artistsuk.co.uk/acatalog/SIGNED_ALAN_LEE_PRINTS.html)** > > Signed prints of the great work of Alan Lee - many of his best paintings as prints and signed by him ! So, I’ll stay with my assessment that Jackson needed a brilliant artist exerting more control over the appearance of the movies. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/42 "2008-12-31T15:54:39Z")
Loved the movies- still I would use more Tolkien dialogue, especially the songs; include the Scouring; have Frodo speak the line which, even in the Rankin-Bass cartoon, is chilling: “I do not now will to do that which I have come to do”; show the vision of Sam’s temptation to become Lord of the Rings (but not with hobbit & orc children playing together! _L_) ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/43 "2008-12-31T16:02:42Z")
Forgot to mention: While I’m sure there were lots of sketches done to see what worked cinematically and what didn’t, I’m still bothered that the Lidless Eye was replaced by the Flaming Vulva. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/44 "2008-12-31T16:20:43Z")
> [@vison](#): > > -Sean Bean as Boromir. This is a personal thing, I admit, but I cannot abide Sean Bean, never could abide him, thought he sucked mightily in Sharpe’s Rifles and its series. > -Too much of that bloody troll in the Mines of Moria. It was dreadful SFX, (…) > -The Wizard’s duel. I know they had to show some kind of combat, and I guess a chess game wouldn’t do, but again, it went on too long. Yawn. > -The geezer that played Theoden. Horrible. The whole “exorcism of Theoden” stank. > -Denethor doing the dive, _en flambe_. Almost everything about Denethor. Stank. > -Faramir? Don’t get me started on Faramir. > -I can’t say how I feel about the horses coming down the slope at Helm’s Deep. As a former rider, I could say plenty. Stupid, that’s about it. > > -far, far, far, far, far, too much SFX. far, far, far, far, far, too many cheap cliches. Is there ONE PJ didn’t use? I doubt it. > . Hi Vison, we seem to have had similar reactions, although I didn’t mind Viggio. Both Boromir and Faramir fell afoul to the sidekick rule: you can’t look better than the lead. In the books Boromir cut a much finer figure than Aragorn. He was the Great Golden Boy. In the films he was just a macho human with hints of jowls. ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/45 "2008-12-31T16:38:29Z")
Change, snide edition: Arwen and Eowyn nekkid, having a pillowfight. Changes, serious: - Scouring of the Shire, compressed; - The Company finding the petrified trolls from Bilbo’s adventure; - Aragon not having the sword brought to him. That played as an “Oh shit, for real?” moment. - A little more of the trek through the weeds of Mordor than was depicted. A lot of my quibbles are with details changed for the convenience of the filmmaker. I understand why Jackson did what he did, and IMAO he did a decent job of smoothing them out regarding the flow of the story, but still… ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/46 "2008-12-31T16:42:24Z")
I understand many of the cuts that Jackson made (Bombidil, the Scouring), but what really bugged me was what he did to the hobbits. In the book, it is years between the birthday party and Frodo leaving the Shire. And when he does, it isn’t an accident that that Pippin and Merry come with him and Sam. Pippin, Merry, Sam, and Fatty plan the escape much better and more sensibly than Frodo does. This could have been incorporated in without too much added screen time. When combined with the other major hobbit related cuts, it turns Merry and Pippin into buffoons. Which is a shame because their whole point in the book was to show how Frodo and Bilbo were not unique, but that the quiet, unnoticed, and normally dismissed halflings were just as capable of being heroic as any other race. Jonathan ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/47 "2008-12-31T16:46:37Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > I understand many of the cuts that Jackson made (Bombidil, the Scouring), but what really bugged me was what he did to the hobbits. In the book, it is years between the birthday party and Frodo leaving the Shire. And when he does, it isn’t an accident that that Pippin and Merry come with him and Sam. Pippin, Merry, Sam, and Fatty plan the escape much better and more sensibly than Frodo does. This could have been incorporated in without too much added screen time. > > When combined with the other major hobbit related cuts, it turns Merry and Pippin into buffoons. Which is a shame because their whole point in the book was to show how Frodo and Bilbo were not unique, but that the quiet, unnoticed, and normally dismissed halflings were just as capable of being heroic as any other race. > > Jonathan Well while Merry was clearly not a buffoon, Pippin was a **fool** ish character that often caused problems. Overall I very much agree though. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/48 "2008-12-31T17:01:04Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > I definitely agree with this. > > I don’t think Jackson needed to invent that whole “Aragorn is dead! Whoops, I guess he isn’t!” tangent in the second movie. Total waste of screen time. As much as I often criticize the movies, I must defend this development. It was a mechanism to separate Aragorn from the mass of the Rohirrim so that he might see the approaching Orc army and rush to warn the others. This was an economical way of providing (to the characters) without adding characters or repeating the “random stranger rides up with horrible news,” which you don’t want to do more than once per movie, I should think. In answer to the question of the OP, I’d shorten the length of the battle of Helm’s Deep in favor of moving the Samwise/Gollum battle to the second movie. Also I’d make Faramir less of a dick. Also I’d remove the ludicrous bit about Denethor saying “a meeting has been called by the elves at rivendell,” which seems to imply that the Gondorians have email. Instead I’d keep to the idea that Boromir and Faramir both had prophetic dreams, and in the flashback to Denethor sending his favorite son, I’d show him making the decision and disparaging Faramir. Also, if there’s any way to show Miranda Otto naked, that would be good. But I only mention that to be an ass. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/49 "2008-12-31T19:04:55Z")
I always like the Old Forest chapter(s) in FOTR, wish that would have been in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/50 "2008-12-31T20:31:39Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > He DID let Frodo go, dammit! Film Faramir was not like film Boromir, and the EE’s make that even more clear. If they had switched positions, Faramir is dead and full of orc arrows, and Boromir is our new Dark Lord. He only lets him go after having the willies scared out of him by the attack of the Witch-King at the crossings of Osgiliath. That’s NOT the same as the Faramir of the books, who lets him go out of noble restraint. Faramir in the movie wants the Ring; Faramir in the book specifically lets the Ring leave his grasp, because he knows it is better to let it be destroyed than to try and weild it. There simply is NO justification for the movie version!:mad: ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/51 "2008-12-31T21:07:49Z")
> [@VunderBob](#): > > - The Company finding the petrified trolls from Bilbo’s adventure; They did, and Sam even points this out in the EE. > [@](#): > > - A little more of the trek through the weeds of Mordor than was depicted. See my post where I mentioned pacing in the last two films. One of the things which made a scene like the Beacons work so well is that we take a break from the main plot(s) and get to see Middle Earth in all her glory, showing the fellowship of man being further strengthened. Such moments were all too rare in TTT & ROTK (think of the Nazgul standing over a misty morn in the Shire, a view of the ruins as the Fellowship enters the foothills, even Sam’s little speech with the scarecrow (and automobile! :D) in the background). ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/52 "2008-12-31T21:20:42Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > He only lets him go after having the willies scared out of him by the attack of the Witch-King at the crossings of Osgiliath. That’s NOT the same as the Faramir of the books, who lets him go out of noble restraint. Faramir in the movie wants the Ring; Faramir in the book specifically lets the Ring leave his grasp, because he knows it is better to let it be destroyed than to try and weild it. > > There simply is NO justification for the movie version!:mad: I’ll try again then… (movie) Faramir has been having a rather bad year, and the stress from same has left him rather despondent and bitter. His father is going mad, his brother is dead, a major city of his kingdom is about to fall, and he desperately wants to get back into the good graces of his father, hopefully salvaging his sanity and his kingdom in the bargain. He sees the ring as a means to achieve these ends, but eventually seeing how the ring has warped Frodo, he relents (“shows his quality”) and does what his brother could not have done, realizing what it would do to him and/or his father (tho it would have been better to expand on the “wizard’s pupil” accusation his father throws his way later). In the ROTK EE we get a scene where he argues with his father over these issues and tries vainly to justify letting the ring go (again I do wish he had used the “not if it was laying by the side of the road would I take it” line at that moment). Book Faramir is just too cheeky to be believable given the crap he has gone through. Yes the Gollum beatings were too over the top, and they should have softened him, a bit, from the beginning (which was partially achieved in his first scene, mourning the death of the Easterling). But the role worked better than a verbatim book copy would have. ---
**Author:** ![Mrs.Cake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mrs.Cake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs.Cake)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/53 "2008-12-31T21:28:05Z")
I didn’t hate the movies, but the farther they went from the book the less I liked them. Much of FOTR looked and felt right to me, TTT less so, and by the time ROTK came around it bore little resemblence to the book. The casting worked part of the time, but there were some that clearly showed the difference between what I saw and what PJ saw. If I had to do it differently (and I wouldn’t, thanks), I’d 1. recast Aragorn (Clive Owen or Ciaran Hinds) and the entire nation of Rohan, or at least those with speaking roles. 2. Lose the Troll and staiway scenes from the Moria sequence (clear examples of “wouldn’t it be cool if” that actually broke the tension for me) 3. Re-write the second two movies from scratch, keeping characters and motivations closer to what was written rather than radically dumbing down and turning motivations on their heads. 4. No CGI Gollum. It pulls me right out of the story. Considering how many actors would have willingly lost the weight and put up with make-up to play the role, it was absurd to go the CGI route. Not saying the team didn’t do a good job, but it wasn’t that far away from Jar-jar. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/54 "2008-12-31T21:32:31Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Arwen in gossamer. Heh. Aragorn in gossamer. Or the male equivalent. I loved the movies. The only thing I would change is the stupid scene with Frodo distrusting Sam, even for a bit. It was incredibly jarring and annoying. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a87d85/32.png) [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Dodgy_Dude)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/55 "2008-12-31T21:48:17Z")
The one thing that bothered me was the way Lothlorien was portrayed. In the books it is bright, sunny place. In the movie it was far, far darker than I was expecting it to be. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/56 "2008-12-31T22:11:41Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > I know several people who are in the “I don’t like the films” camp. Their response is not that the films should have been made differently, but that they should not have been made at all. They argue that the books are best left to the realm of the imagination. Which is consistent with Tolkien’s own theory of fairy-story, to some degree (though Tolkien did at least illustrate his own books, which is oft forgotten). ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/57 "2009-01-01T02:57:28Z")
> [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](#): > > The one thing that bothered me was the way Lothlorien was portrayed. In the books it is bright, sunny place. In the movie it was far, far darker than I was expecting it to be. Perhaps because they arrived at night? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/58 "2009-01-01T04:26:26Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Book Faramir is just too cheeky to be believable given the crap he has gone through. Yes the Gollum beatings were too over the top, and they should have softened him, a bit, from the beginning (which was partially achieved in his first scene, mourning the death of the Easterling). But the role worked better than a verbatim book copy would have. Bullcrap. Faramir is the way he is in the book because he’s Gandalf’s pupil, and because in him the blood of the better parts of Numenor flows true. Boromir is too like his father: he doesn’t see himself as vulnerable, so he never questions his ability to use the Ring. Nor does he see Gondor as only a small part of the puzzle; to him, Gondor is everything. In the movie, Peter Jackson makes a complete hash of the most important part of Book 5, indeed, perhaps the central and most important aspect of the whole story! Why do we CARE what happened to the One Ring? More importantly, why do the Vala and the Maia care? The elves are on their way out of Middle-Earth as it is, the Great and Less Powers have walled themselves off from Middle-Earth with the bending of the world, and the Dwarves and Ents are dwindling. What difference does it make what Sauron does with Men? Men are petty, grasping things, who rarely look past their nose, except to count the rings on their fingers and the money in their vaults. All too easily do humans fall under the sway of Evil, as a result. And yet… And yet, the Powers do not write us off. They send their own selves to us in human form, to try and lead us into making the right decisions about the Ring and Sauron. Heck, they send one of their best and brightest BACK to Middle-Earth to finish up the job he botched, because with foresight they realize that the task cannot be completed without him. WHY? Because of Faramir, and Faramir’s choice. For four and a half books, we’ve watched as the Ring escapes narrowly from falling into the wrong hands. Horsemen in The Shire. A tree spirit in the Old Forest. The Barrow. The Horesmen again at Amon Sûl. The Horsemen AGAIN at the Ford. Moria. Outside Moria. Gollum on the River. Boromir at Amon Hen. Orcs at Amon Hen. Gollum in the Emyn Muil. The Ring MUST stay hidden, its location unknown, lest corruptible men or beings take it away from the Bearer, and seek to turn it to their own use, or, worse, take it straight to its Master in the Barad-Dûr. And then, after all the care, on the very doorstep of the realm of the Ring’s Master, in a moment fraught with the very danger that the movie chooses to have occur, the unthinkable happens! The Ring is betrayed, revealed to someone who can use it, needs to use it, MUST take it! The jig is up! Frodo and Sam stand there, amidst a horde of Men, and their hope flees them as they realize they could never hope to stop Faramir from taking the Ring. And in this moment, a moment that, had it been Boromir, would have resulted in EXACTLY what the movie portrays, or worse, the brother of Boromir, knowing what it is that Boromir must have tried, eschews any attempt to take the Ring. If the Wise are content to let the Ringbearer take it into Mordor, then he will be content with their decision, though he knows that both he, and Gondor, may pay a heavy price for his choice. He MUST know as he stands there deciding what Denethor’s reaction will be if he does NOT bring the Ring to his father. But Faramir is not Boromir, or Denethor, or indeed any of a number of corruptible men we see in the book. Instead, he is of the same cloth as Aragorn, as Gandalf, as in their own way the hobbits are. He sees even bigger things in play, not just Gondor’s Need, but the need of the world as a whole. And he sees his own frailty. He recognizes it for what it is, and he refuses to give in to it. He rises above himself, and, in so doing, _ **justifies every hope that the Powers have for a world run by men.** _ In that one moment, that simple decision, the whole point of the book is revealed. Tolkein, who had been through his own Great War, saw in man the ability to achieve nobility. Man CAN choose the harder path, the path through pain and peril, based upon nothing but the hope and the promise of a better tomorrow. Mankind CAN refuse its own inner weaknesses, and reject its petty and baser emotions. Humans are capable of MORE, and that MORE is demonstrated right there in the book by Faramir. Yes, Elrond would not take the Ring, yes Galadriel passed the test. But they are high and mighty elves, puissant and blessed. Faramir is simply a man, a man facing danger, a man facing destruction, a man facing the ruin of all he knows. And still … And still he takes the stupid Ringbearer bound to Osgiliath where a Ringwraith spots them! The Wraith, of course, KNOWS the Ring is there. Sauron, knowing what the Wraith knows, immediately dispatches EVERY resource He has to locate where it goes after the encounter at Osgiliath. Ithilien is flooded with orcs, and worse, hunting. Morgul Vale is made a place of intense watchfulness. Battle with Gondor can wait! The RING is on his realm’s doorstep, and he has but to search and search and He will HAVE it. Meanwhile, Faramir shows no nobility whatsoever. He’s as base as his brother, until damn near dying at the hands of the Wraith wakes him up to some realities. Whereupon he finally gets an attack of conscience and lets Frodo go. BAH. what drivel. In my opinion the worst deviation from the story in the book by far. :smack::smack::smack: ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/59 "2009-01-01T08:31:40Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > He rises above himself, and, in so doing, _ **justifies every hope that the Powers have for a world run by men.** _ You hit it perfectly right here, and this is the biggest problem with Jackson’s trilogy: men are simply too weak to defend themselves. Movie Elrond says “Men are weak” with a disgusted sneer. Book Elrond did not have this attitude, and looked on Aragorn almost as an adopted son. In the movies, Jackson had the Elves bail the Rohirrim out at Helm’s Deep. BULLSHIT. The Rohirrim were more than capable of fighting that battle themselves. Jackson turned the soldiers of Gondor into complete pussies in the face of the orc hordes at the battle of Minas Tirith. Where was Prince Imrahil? In the books, men are proving themselves strong enough to up the mantle in Middle Earth in the face of the fading of the Elves. With the way Jackson portrays them in the movies, no wonder Elrond doesn’t trust them. The change to Faramir was a microcosm of everything that was wrong with Jackson’s trilogy. Oh, and if I remember correctly, the Army of the Dead never fought on the Pelennor Fields. They aided Aragorn and company in taking the Corsair ships, but that is where their participation ended. From that point on it was entirely the soldiers of Gondor, the Rohirrim, and the Rangers from the North who had followed Aragorn through the Paths of the Dead. Which brings up another point, why the hell did Jackson have the Elves show up at Helm’s Deep when he could have just had the Rangers arrive to aid the Rohirrim? ---
**Author:** ![NoCoolUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@NoCoolUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoCoolUserName)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300/60 "2009-01-01T16:58:51Z")
Thank you **DSYoungEsq**. Nicely said and well written. The CGI-fest bothers me some, especially the heffalumps the size of 747s, but the perversion of the major themes–which are why I love the books–are what make the movies weak for me. That humans can rise above, as you have said, is one. That someone must sacrifice to defeat evil is another–when the Hobbits return home and everything is instantly back to normal…I don’t insist on Scouring the Shire, but Frodo’s pain should have been obvious: the Morgul knife wound is healed? Shelob’s sting…gone? And the “long burden” is…forgotten? Harumph. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-lotr-fans-who-hate-jacksons-lotr-cycle-how-would-you-have-done-it-better/479300.md?page=4)