# To those of you who say I'm not supporting the troops... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700 "2003-04-01T14:05:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Maximum\_C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b77776/32.png) [@Maximum\_C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maximum_C)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/41 "2003-04-01T20:10:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamex \* > \*\*“Support the troops” is a euphemism, I think. “Pro-war” is a distasteful term to many, just like “anti-choice” or “pro-abortion”, so they say “support the troops” instead. It sounds better, and they can accuse those who do not support the war of not “supporting the troops”, which, of course, sounds like a bad thing. > \*\* Lemme back up that BINGO with a “RIGHT ON”. -C ---
**Author:** ![jkusters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/fbc32d/32.png) [@jkusters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkusters)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/42 "2003-04-01T20:13:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spit \* > **Sometimes kicking ass _is_ a valid means of solving a problem. Howeve, it is rarely the first option.** I’m not comfortable with it, but in practical terms you are probably correct. I guess my point was that there are plenty of people who are very eager for war, and the previous post seemed to indicate that the possibility was unthinkable. For instance, the other day I was getting my car’s smog certification and was waiting in the shop’s lobby. There were a number of people there talking about the war. They were very “gung ho” about shooting and killing and bombing, and I even heard one of them ask, “Why don’t we just drop a nuke in Bagdag?” Appalling! I would guess if you asked these guys, they would be very “pro-war.” Thanks, JOhn. ---
**Author:** ![Tamex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Tamex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamex)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/43 "2003-04-01T21:17:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spit \* > \*\*Sometimes the mere threat of kicking ass (or is it ass kicking?) is enough to get the desired result, as in: > > “Little brother, clean your room or I’ll kick your ass!”\*\* However, Mom’s not going to approve of that threat, even if it does work. (That, and little brother will lie in wait. Someday, he’ll be as big as big brother, and he’ll be the “ass kicker” then!) > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by DrLizardo_ > **I saw a banner that said "We gave peace a chance, we got 9/11"** Yeah, the “War on Terror” shouldn’t be forgotten in all this. 🙂 The only other pro-war slogan I’ve seen is “Liberate Iraq”. What else are they going to say? “SUV’s Need Cheap Gas”? “There Might Be WMD’s”? The pro-war people are suffering from the same thing the anti-war people are, really–Bush hasn’t really ever given a good, solid, convincing arguement for this war. Makes slogans difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/44 "2003-04-01T21:21:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamex \* > \*\*Bush hasn’t really ever given a good, solid, convincing arguement for this war. Makes slogans difficult. \*\* Doesn’t stop 'em from trying, though. I remember some pro-war TV ads that were playing a few weeks ago, using the phrase “Saddam _must_ go.” in a very dramatic voice. Great sloganeering, that. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/45 "2003-04-01T21:24:37Z")
insufficient syllables - it’s gotta have a rhythm. “Hey hey hey ho - Saddams’ gotta go” See? it doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/46 "2003-04-01T21:32:14Z")
I’m not supporting the troops. Then again, I’m not un-supporting the troops either. I’m just, you know, doing what I always do. Frankly, I’m not sure what “supporting the troops” would even involve. What kind of support do they need? And why am I suddenly reminded of a bra commercial? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/47 "2003-04-01T21:42:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*insufficient syllables - it’s gotta have a rhythm. “Hey hey hey ho - Saddams’ gotta go” > > See? it doesn’t work. \*\* Just add his last name, to get one more accented syllable: “Hey hey ho ho - Saddam Hussein has gotta go” It still sounds dumb, but at least it scans. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/48 "2003-04-01T22:08:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamex \* > \*\*The pro-war people are suffering from the same thing the anti-war people are, really–Bush hasn’t really ever given a good, solid, convincing arguement for this war. Makes slogans difficult. \*\* > [@](#): > > “In this century, when evil men plot chemical, biological and nuclear terror, a policy of appeasement could bring destruction of a kind never before seen on this earth. Terrorists and terrorist states do not reveal these threats with fair notice in formal declarations. And responding to such enemies only after they have struck first is not self defense. It is suicide. The security of the world requires disarming Saddam Hussein now.” > – President George W. Bush I have, up till now, avoided getting involved in the war debate. I thought, “hey, I’m just a college kid, I’m not that well informed, heck, I barely remember the first Gulf War. I don’t spend hours poring over the One True unbiased newsfeed. I don’t have access to the major newspapers. I’m well enough informed to figure out what I think, but probably not well enough to shoot down anyone trying to argue with me.” Perusing most of these threads, I see that none of that stuff is really required. Apparently all you have to have is an opinion. I’ve got plenty. Saddam Hussein is an evil dictator. He should not have power. He poses a threat to world peace now. He could eventually, if he doesn’t now, pose a threat to the safety of the people and territory of the United States. The United Nations has failed to do their duty in dealing with Saddam Hussein. Why us? Why now? Why him? These are all valid questions. I don’t have the answers to these. I have ideas, I have thoughts and opinions, but not answers. But I’ll tell you something: the answers don’t really matter. The fact is that Saddam is a cruel dictator. The fact is that the main objective of this war is to eliminate him as a threat to world peace. The fact is that will mean that one less cruel dictator is in power. One less threat to world peace. If we had decided to disarm North Korea instead, as I’ve heard many people wondering why not there, my feelings would be the same. One less threat to world peace. Diplomacy failed. The choice was between appease or act. We chose to act. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/49 "2003-04-01T22:10:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Amok \* > \*\*Frankly, I’m not sure what “supporting the troops” would even involve. What kind of support do they need? And why am I suddenly reminded of a bra commercial? \*\* “Yup, they’re developing a combat bra up here in Canada, your tax dollars at work… Why are we spending all that money? Has nobody ever seen a _Leave it to Beaver_ rerun? June Cleaver! Her tits were so pointy, now that’s a combat bra! Woman drops her bayonet, she loses her rifle - you just embrace the enemy.” - Maggie Cassella ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/50 "2003-04-01T22:13:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jkusters \* > **Do I continue to protest, knowing that our troops might be negatively impacted (and I understand that not being supported at home can be seriously distracting, and distracted soldiers are more apt to get hurt)?** Wjere are you getting this idea from? It’s sounds like more pro-war propaganda to me. Are they really sitting around Iraq watching the (non-existent) news coverage of the protests? Can they hear us shouting anti-war slogans from all the way over there? If they come back with a heavy conscience over what they’ve done, then that’s a healthy thing. But I don’t buy that the protests are having any effect on their ability to keep themselves alive. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/51 "2003-04-01T22:17:22Z")
**Garfield** , there are a million threads debating whether this war is justified. It would be nice if this thread didn’t become another one. Here we’re talking about “supporting the troops.” Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/52 "2003-04-01T22:31:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chula \* > \*\ ***Garfield** , there are a million threads debating whether this war is justified. It would be nice if this thread didn’t become another one. Here we’re talking about “supporting the troops.” Thanks. \*\* Good point. You’re right. Sorry. Like I said, it was the first war thread I’ve responded to and it was in the pit, and someone said that President Bush hadn’t given a reason, so I was responding to that. But the main issue is supporting the troops, I understand. For the record, I understand how one could support the troops and not support the war. I think a lot of the anti-war crowd supports the troops. Just my $0.02 ---
**Author:** ![jkusters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/fbc32d/32.png) [@jkusters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkusters)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/53 "2003-04-01T22:49:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chula \* > \*\*Wjere are you getting this idea from?.. But I don’t buy that the protests are having any effect on their ability to keep themselves alive. \*\* I get my information from my brother who was and active duty Marine involved in the first Iraq dust-up. He came home safely, thank goodness, but some fellow Marines he knew did not. He and I have chatted about this, and yes, they did know about the protests back home, and yes it did have an effect. The protests are more world-wide this time, and it seems to me there are more people protesting. I make the logical conclusion that the fighting forces in Iraq today are as informed if not more so than those engaged in the previous conflict and further that they are just as aware of the world-wide protest regarding the actions they are being asked to take. That’s my source. What’s yours? JOhn. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/54 "2003-04-01T23:47:56Z")
That doesn’t make much sense to me, **jkusters**. I would think that they would have better things to do than watch the news. And if what they see is so disturbing that they lose the will to fight for their own lives, I would think the government would pull the plug on that information. Anyway, is it the fact that everyone is protesting the war that bothers them or the fact that everyone thinks the war is wrong? That latter cannot be changed. Are we actually supposed to go out and say we support the war all of a sudden? ---
**Author:** ![Lucretia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@Lucretia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucretia)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/55 "2003-04-02T00:31:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\*Fair enough. Would you agree that mine are as well? I still don’t feel that I’ve shown anything but support for our troops, despite my feelings about the war, and that’s pretty much affirmed by the people _I_ know in the military, all of whom are aware of my stance on the war. > > I note that you didn’t address the other things that I’ve done to show support for our soldiers. Would you also agree that I’ve shown support for soldiers beyond just words? > > I’m interested, too, to see how you might respond to **jkusters** second post. \*\* I think the things you’ve done are wonderful, and I’ve already said that I believe many people are sincere in wanting to both oppose the war and support the troops. But ask yourself this question: is it more or less likely to increase or decrease a soldier’s willingness to fight, if he believes the cause that he might take lives for, or give his own is not worthy? Is his willingness or unwillingness to fight likely to increase his efficiency, hastening the end of the war, and increasing his chance for survival? Hearing “I think _you_ are great, but I think what you are _doing_ is wrong.” is not a huge morale booster, no matter how many letters and cookies accompany that sentiment. (Note: I am _not_ disparaging your efforts. Nor am I implying that you actually said this to any soldiers you or your daughters may have written to.) And to **jkusters** : I am very happy to see that you understand that public protest affects military performance in a real way. Two of the people we know personally who are deployed are in command of troops, and they also say that soldiers are aware of public sentiment, and that it can make a real difference in troop performance. It can be a real challenge for a field commander to keep up morale and motivation in the face of other messages from sources that American soldiers have grown up trusting. As for what you should do…well, I have never said that Americans should ignore their consciences. But I do believe that the only thing that public protest will accomplish is a prolonging of the war, resulting in more death on both sides. I say this not to make any kind of underhand threat, or to co-opt your belief, but to make you aware of why I, and the majority of military members, tend to feel there is a disconnect between “supporting the troops” and “protesting the war”. ---
**Author:** ![jkusters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/fbc32d/32.png) [@jkusters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkusters)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/56 "2003-04-02T00:49:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chula \* > **I would think that they would have better things to do than watch the news.** One thing I know about military life, even in a battle zone, is that there are frequently periods where all you are doing is waiting. In wars of previous decades, soldiers would pass the time reading comic books or magazines. Nowadays, from what I see on the TV, many units have portable media centers where the soldiers can catch up on news, and possibly even send/receive email (you’d have to ask an active service person about the details). Not 100% of the time is engaged in active fighting or preparation. > [@](#): > > **And if what they see is so disturbing that they lose the will to fight for their own lives, I would think the government would pull the plug on that information.** I didn’t say they lost the will to fight, but I did say it is a distraction. **Lucretia** and others support that supposition. And distraction can be very hazardous, especially distractions that cause one to doubt the “rightness” of what the soldier is doing. What was the phrase used over and over again in the “gays in the military flap?” Oh, yes, lack of “unit cohesion.” While gay service people may or may not lead to a lessoning of unit cohesion, mistrust of military leaders certainly will. Should military leaders censor what the troops see? Perhaps, but I would think this would lead to even greater mistrust of unit commanders. Any other opinions on this from the assembled military-knowledgeable folk? > [@](#): > > \*\*Anyway, is it the fact that everyone is protesting the war that bothers them or the fact that everyone thinks the war is wrong? That latter cannot be changed. Are we actually supposed to go out and say we support the war all of a sudden? \*\* And now you reach the crux of my, and many other people’s, dilema. We feel it is imperative to exercise our first amendment rights to declare we feel it is an unjust or ill-advised war, but do not want to cause any more pain and suffering amongst the troops than is absolutely necessary. I have no wish to have service people hurt or killed because of my actions, but I can’t remain silent regarding the actions of the leaders who got us into the war in the first place (Bush, Rumsfeld, et al.). From reading ahead in the thread, looks like people who think any protests are bad have no answers either. ☹ JOhn. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/57 "2003-04-02T01:10:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lucretia \* > **But ask yourself this question: is it more or less likely to increase or decrease a soldier’s willingness to fight, if he believes the cause that he might take lives for, or give his own is not worthy? Is his willingness or unwillingness to fight likely to increase his efficiency, hastening the end of the war, and increasing his chance for survival? Hearing “I think _you_ are great, but I think what you are _doing_ is wrong.” is not a huge morale booster, no matter how many letters and cookies accompany that sentiment. (Note: I am _not_ disparaging your efforts. Nor am I implying that you actually said this to any soldiers you or your daughters may have written to.)** It’s a fair question, and fairly phrased. To me, this is getting down to which mindset I hold as a priority: the soldiers’ or my own. Since I cannot do much, in the end, to control or even regulate how the soldiers feel while in combat, I feel that it isn’t my responsibility to change my mind about the war or be less vocal about it. Mind you, I’m not particularly vocal about it in the first place. I guess what I’m saying is that I feel that my beliefs and my right to express them are every bit as important as the soldier’s right to feel what they’re feeling about it. I can’t control their actions, or their reactions to what I’m feeling, whatever that may be. If they feel that my right to my beliefs are what they’re fighting for, then why should I change them? If they feel that my beliefs are a betrayal to everything they’re fighting for, then would my changing them change their minds about me? Make them feel better? Should I wave a flag and lie about my beliefs, on the off chance that it makes a soldier feel better? No thanks. I’d rather be honest, with myself and with others, and go on supporting the troops in some other way. There are some things that are within my control and some things that aren’t, and how a soldier feels about my beliefs isn’t one of them. When it comes down to it, I value honesty too much to abdicate it like that. And frankly, a soldier shouldn’t be abdicating _their_ beliefs or standards just because I and others disagree with the war effort in general. I guess I believe that I am no more responsible for how a soldier feels about _my_ feelings than he is responsible for how I feel about his… if that makes any sense. So I’ll go on supporting our troops in the best way that I know how, but if you expect me to change my beliefs or lie about them, then I’m afraid that that’s not going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700/58 "2003-04-02T03:11:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jkusters \* > And now you reach the crux of my, and many other people’s, dilema. We feel it is imperative to exercise our first amendment rights to declare we feel it is an unjust or ill-advised war, but do not want to cause any more pain and suffering amongst the troops than is absolutely necessary. I have no wish to have service people hurt or killed because of my actions, but I can’t remain silent regarding the actions of the leaders who got us into the war in the first place (Bush, Rumsfeld, et al.). Your thinking leads me to the conclusion that we must not only refrain from protesting but also lie about our opinions. Maybe this is why polls show so much support for the war. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-of-you-who-say-im-not-supporting-the-troops/165700.md?page=2)