# To those who don't think criminals are different than you and I **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2007, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921 "2007-03-07T05:37:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/41 "2007-03-07T17:11:41Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] The overall “evil” titers are higher among inmates than among non-inmates. [/QUOTE] “Titers?” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/42 "2007-03-07T17:21:40Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] “Titers?” [/QUOTE] [Titers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titer) ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/43 "2007-03-07T17:23:35Z")
Med speak You test for concentration of a particular substance with a test that separates it from the rest of the blood, the desired substance is “titered” and the value is called a titer. Higher titer, more evil. Treating evil as a specific poison detectable in the blood. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/44 "2007-03-07T17:39:30Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] Anyway, when I watch a flick, sometimes I find myself not only questioning “What was the rest of your plan?” in regards to the criminals’ plan but also trying to work out the plan. It’s just an exercise in plot logic, if you will. [/QUOTE] I’ve done this with my buddies. Hell, we did this back in highschool even. I remember after watching _Presumed Innocent_ we sat around a cafe afterwards trying to formulate a scheme for a perfect murder. Not a single one of us have any violent tendencies (unless we’re playing hockey). ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/45 "2007-03-07T18:14:55Z")
I’m guessing it was one of those “you had to be there” moments. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/46 "2007-03-07T19:25:30Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] I’m not sure **Nemo** is qualified to expound on the mental characteristics of prisoners, not being close enough to the situation. To _really_ know if you understand prisoners, we need to know one thing: where does your spouse work? [/QUOTE] to put it another way - since the person you’re referencing hasn’t even posted in this thread, this comment is uncalled for and a cheap ass shot. On another topic, I’ll second **Fear Itself**'s comment about why folks should care, and on the topic of the OP: I don’t see why the comment struck such a nerve w/you. As others have pointed out, there’s any number of folks (who aren’t sociopathic murderers) who’d have opined the same thing (including, obviously, the author), and for a variety of reasons. what strikes **me** about casual conversations w/inmates/former inmates is how casual they can seem to be about the actual doing time “catching a felony” (is there some one out there tossing them around?) etc. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/47 "2007-03-08T00:23:58Z")
I hope it’s obvious that I don’t think all inmates are like this one person I overheard. As I wrote, the other inmate he was talking to wasn’t casual about the murder scene. I work with prisoners. I’ve worked with them forty hours a week for twenty five years. I like to think I do have some understanding of the subject. I can relate to prisoners as people and recognize them as individuals. But even so, after all this time, somebody will say something and I’ll think, “wow, that is so alien to the way my mind thinks, I can’t relate to that at all.” And this was such a moment. I can imagine how it might feel to be angry enough to kill somebody. But I can’t imagine how it would feel to be indifferent about killing somebody. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/48 "2007-03-08T00:57:06Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] I’m not sure **Nemo** is qualified to expound on the mental characteristics of prisoners, not being close enough to the situation. To _really_ know if you understand prisoners, we need to know one thing: where does your spouse work? [/QUOTE] Kinda harsh, but I still grinned. You coulda softened the blow with a smilie. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/49 "2007-03-08T02:19:11Z")
I dunno. Read Hannah Arendt’s _The Banality of Evil_ someday. Ordinary people can behave like monsters if put in the right (wrong?) circumstances. I’ve never committed a serious crime, but I was born in a middle-class family with supportive parents, above-average intelligence (so no troubles with school), no friends or acquaintances who were serious criminals and who might influence me to join a gang or something. But I don’t think I have an innate and overwhelming drive for goodness that would cause me to have turned out okay regardless of circumstances. This is not to make excuses for criminals, or think they shouldn’t be incarcerated and kept from the rest of society. I just wonder how many good people turned out good due to good fortune rather than innate merit. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/50 "2007-03-08T02:44:16Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I can’t imagine how it would feel to be indifferent about killing somebody. [/QUOTE] I can’t either. But believe me, that trait is not unique to inmates. I’ve seen it in more than one “outstanding” citizen who was respected and admired by the community. In one case, his family sure was troubled by him, though. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/51 "2007-03-08T02:57:33Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] But I can’t imagine how it would feel to be indifferent about killing somebody. [/QUOTE] Heck, you give me the “right” somebody to kill, and I won’t feel indifferent about it, I’ll be _happy_. Oh, yeah, Osama, I’m totally looking in your direction. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/52 "2007-03-08T03:24:57Z")
I haven’t killed anyone because the extent of my potential for brutality has never been tested. I am not foolish enough to believe that that depth is not there. The greatest evils have been perpetrated by those intrisically no different than me. Those who manned the death camps played with their kids who they loved; probably gave up their seats for little old ladies on the train. But their society of the time had a particular expectation of them and they did their jobs as was expected. I exist within a different particular context no doubt. Still, the evil is a potential within me as well. My father was a kind man. Fought in WW2. Killed lots of people and never expressed any regret about it. Did what was expected. He was appointed a military mayor of a small German town. I don’t want to know what he calmly did to anyone who he concluded had been a Nazi. But I am pretty sure it warn’t pretty. It is easy to forget that the potential for brutality is within us all, to delude ourselves into believing that criminals are somehow intrinsically “different than you and I.” They are not. Fear of punishment and perception of being part of a social norm restrains us. No question those who violate those norms need to be punished to protect us from them. And us from ourselves. I am reminded of one of Terry Pratchett’s books, Thud, in which the kicker was that “The Summoning Dark” that had been stalking Vimes within his mind came up against “The Watchman” within Vimes mind. “What kind of human creates his own policeman?” “One who fears the dark.” “And so he should,” said the entity, with satisfaction. “Indeed. But I think you misunderstand. I am not here to keep the darkness out. I’m here to keep it in.” Or as **Jackmanni** has suggested I use as my sig: I am the beast in question. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/53 "2007-03-08T13:00:23Z")
Sorry man, I didn’t think anyone would get so worked up about a lame attempt at humour. ---
**Author:** ![Marienee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Marienee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marienee)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/54 "2007-03-08T13:25:34Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I hope it’s obvious that I don’t think all inmates are like this one person I overheard. As I wrote, the other inmate he was talking to wasn’t casual about the murder scene. I work with prisoners. I’ve worked with them forty hours a week for twenty five years. I like to think I do have some understanding of the subject. I can relate to prisoners as people and recognize them as individuals. But even so, after all this time, somebody will say something and I’ll think, “wow, that is so alien to the way my mind thinks, I can’t relate to that at all.” And this was such a moment. I can imagine how it might feel to be angry enough to kill somebody. But I can’t imagine how it would feel to be indifferent about killing somebody. [/QUOTE] Well, no, it isn’t obvious at all. When you say stuff like “But people in prison have” [killed somebody, in contrast to people not in prison, who obviously have not killed anybody(!)]. And “I know that. I’ve worked with \*these people \* for many years.” (italics mine) and you start your thread with “To those who dont’ think criminals are different than you and I” you make it non-obvious that the distinction you are drawing is not between prisoners as a class and non-prisoners as a class. However hard you try to take it back, you keep giving it away again; you do think that. Or at least, you are in the habit of speaking in terms of those classes of people which is just one small step away from thinking that. I do know what you mean; I have known several people such as you describe and it is indeed a very unsettling experience to realize that there are people who are indifferent to taking another life. I knew one fellow who was (he is dead now) entirely indifferent to hurting people in various ways and then leaving them alive but broken in various ways, which was in its way even more disturbing. But none of the ones I know ever spent a day in prison, to my knowledge. So I deny that this is an important point of distinction between people in prison and people out of prison. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/55 "2007-03-08T13:56:08Z")
[QUOTE=casdave] ```auto Characteristic General Population Prisoners Suffers from 2 or more 5% Men 72% male prisoners mental disorders 2%Women 70% female prisoners Suffers from 3 or more 1% men 44% male prisoners mental disorders 0% women 62% female prisoners Neurotic Disorder 12% men 40%male prisoners 18% women 63% female prisoners Psychotic Disorder 0.5% men 7% male prisoners 0.6% women 14% female prisoners Personality Disorder 5.4% men 64% male prisoners 3.4% women 50% female prisoners Drug use in previous year 13% men 66% male prisoners 8% women 55% female prisoners ``` [http://www.socialexclusionunit.gov.uk/downloaddoc.asp?id=64](http://www.socialexclusionunit.gov.uk/downloaddoc.asp?id=64) This maybe explains a few things [/QUOTE] That makes me think we’re catching the inept criminals. Someone who goes to work stoned or has a serious untreated mental illness will have a hard time being successful at any career. If I change my mind after reading the 200–odd page link, I’ll let you know. As for how some people can murder like the rest of us do the laundry or take out the trash–old Jewish story: The wise scholar said, “Tradition is very important. If it’s done often enough, even sin is permitted.” His students were horrified, and one asked, “But Rabbi, how can this be? How can sin be permitted?” “Well, to the person who does it, after he commits it enough times, it seems permitted.” ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/56 "2007-03-08T14:05:51Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Prezactly. We all _say_ how the crime is supposed to be done and who deserves to be all shot up and stabbity-stabbed; we just don’t _do_ it. [/QUOTE] No, we don’t get _caught_ doing it :). ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/57 "2007-03-08T17:12:23Z")
> [@](#): > > If I change my mind after reading the 200–odd page link, I’ll let you know It is a very good report though, it is very straightforward and easy to read, but for those with lazy thinking, it is also an education - should they choose to accept the opportunity. One way to fight ignorance is to present such opportunities, those who choose to remain ignorant and yet make less informed comments are free so to do, but will often be embarassed by those who are astute enough either to learn, or shut up. I’ll leave a smiley here, it keeps the ignorant happy 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/58 "2007-03-08T19:41:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, no, it isn’t obvious at all. When you say stuff like “But people in prison have” [killed somebody, in contrast to people not in prison, who obviously have not killed anybody(!)]. And “I know that. I’ve worked with these people for many years.” (italics mine) and you start your thread with “To those who dont’ think criminals are different than you and I” you make it non-obvious that the distinction you are drawing is not between prisoners as a class and non-prisoners as a class. However hard you try to take it back, you keep giving it away again; you do think that. Or at least, you are in the habit of speaking in terms of those classes of people which is just one small step away from thinking that. > > I do know what you mean; I have known several people such as you describe and it is indeed a very unsettling experience to realize that there are people who are indifferent to taking another life. I knew one fellow who was (he is dead now) entirely indifferent to hurting people in various ways and then leaving them alive but broken in various ways, which was in its way even more disturbing. > > But none of the ones I know ever spent a day in prison, to my knowledge. So I deny that this is an important point of distinction between people in prison and people out of prison. You should be careful, Marie, you could injure yourself twisting things up like that. I’m surprised you know the people you claim to know. And I’m even more surprised that you say you know the kind of people I know and they’ve never spent a day in prison. I know a guy that’s a serial killer - he like to kill pregnant women - and his idea of a practical joke was to go to subway stations and push people in front of trains. I know a guy that liked to rape nurses while he strangled them. I know a guy who had been fighting with his girlfriend and wanted to upset her - so he poured gasoline on their three children and set them on fire. I know a guy who was a professional hitman - his special signature move was to cut out his victim’s eyes before killing them. I know a guy that abducted high school students - so he could eat them. Now you can tell me you know people like this and I can’t call you a liar because I don’t know you - maybe you live in a bad neighbourhood. But you also want me to think that these people are just like you and me - well again, I don’t know you, but I’m very sure these people are not like me. ---
**Author:** ![Marienee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Marienee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marienee)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/59 "2007-03-08T20:39:06Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] You should be careful, Marie, you could injure yourself twisting things up like that. I’m surprised you know the people you claim to know. And I’m even more surprised that you say you know the kind of people I know and they’ve never spent a day in prison. I know a guy that’s a serial killer - he like to kill pregnant women - and his idea of a practical joke was to go to subway stations and push people in front of trains. I know a guy that liked to rape nurses while he strangled them. I know a guy who had been fighting with his girlfriend and wanted to upset her - so he poured gasoline on their three children and set them on fire. I know a guy who was a professional hitman - his special signature move was to cut out his victim’s eyes before killing them. I know a guy that abducted high school students - so he could eat them. Now you can tell me you know people like this and I can’t call you a liar because I don’t know you - maybe you live in a bad neighbourhood. But you also want me to think that these people are just like you and me - well again, I don’t know you, but I’m very sure these people are not like me. [/QUOTE] Somebody’s twisting but it isn’t me. You said it was or should be obvious that you are not dividing the world into two classes – prisoners and non-prisoners – and then suggesting that being a psychopath (or a sociopath, I suppose, but that opens another tangential cabinet of hair splitting instruments) was a characteristic that divided the classes. And I said that was not obvious at all based upon the language used. I don’t know what goes on between your ears but I know what goes on between your use of the “enter” button. And I don’t imagine the psychological dynamic behind that kind of dividing people into classes would be a revelation to you, I hear it’s part of the training nowadays. You may call me a liar if you like, if it makes you feel better have at it. But I do wonder what it is that makes it so important to you to have the “inside line”, the special unique insight into “these people”. This is apparently going to be a surprise to you, but “these people” interact with lots of people every day, and some of the people they interact with are not you. Folks in all kinds of professions encounter them now and again. Not regularly, of course, there aren’t very many of them in my world view. Because my world view does not include the prisoner = psychopath equation. Here’s how it looks from here: There are indeed people in the world not moved by human pain or by taking life. They are indeed not like you and me in that way. There are very few of them. Some of them are in prison and some of them are not. Of the latter group, some of them have been and some of them have not; and further, some of them will be at some time in furture and and some will not. There are also people in the world who are affected by human pain or taking a life who either overcome that or who learn to ignore it or supress it in various ways and for various reasons and for very different lengths of time. Finally, there are people in the world who are moved by human pain or by taking life who do not confuse events in a movie they are watching with real life, and who do not confuse conversations about movies with conversations abotu events which actually are occurring. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921/60 "2007-03-08T21:02:47Z")
[QUOTE=Marienee] Here’s how it looks from here: There are indeed people in the world not moved by human pain or by taking life. They are indeed not like you and me in that way. There are very few of them. Some of them are in prison and some of them are not. Of the latter group, some of them have been and some of them have not; and further, some of them will be at some time in furture and and some will not. [/QUOTE] I was surprised to read that the percentage of sociopaths is larger than I expected. [This author](http://www.curledup.com/sociopat.htm) estimates 4% as does [this site](http://www.psychiatric-disorders.com/personality/antisocial.php). It appears that sociopathy is one of the mental disorders that must be represented in the statistics above but I agree that not all sociopaths are in prison and that the distinction between ‘us’ and ‘them’ ought not be conceived in terms of moral superiority/inferiority but rather in terms of psychological differences. I completely agree that any of us could have turned out the same, given the right (or, really, wrong) circumstances. _L’ Etranger_ by Camus really brought that home for me. He was hot, annoyed, tired, and he had a gun. It’s much too easy to use one finger to kill someone; given the right mixture of events and circumstances, plenty of people would be capable of doing that kind of thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-dont-think-criminals-are-different-than-you-and-i/394921.md?page=4)