# To those who support murder and/or rape in prison: What's the rest of your plan? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2022, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403 "2022-07-23T02:43:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/21 "2022-07-23T13:51:49Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > prison should be a sufficiently-unpleasant place that first-time offenders would want to avoid repeating the behavior that landed them there in the first place. Exactly. If I commit a crime and serve a sentence that isn’t in proportion to the harm I caused, why should I feel that I’ve been deterred? And while I don’t support or condone someone like Epstein being beaten up in prison….I understand. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/22 "2022-07-23T13:53:41Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I think that’s been accomplished, because revenge fantasies don’t hurt people, and corrupt cops do. Revenge fantasies allow people to vent their frustration without actually hurting anyone. > > Sure, it’s mean spirited, but maybe we can reserve the term Monster for people who actually harm other people in a definable way. Whether or not somebody is a monster does not depend on his ability or lack thereof to actually carry out his monstrous wishes. If you met somebody who fervently wished that he was a dictator, so that he could finish what Hitler started, I imagine that you would be willing to call him a monster. ---
**Author:** ![Oxido](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9adbd/32.png) [@Oxido](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oxido)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/23 "2022-07-23T14:00:40Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I can’t make that part of my instinct go away, but I can ignore it. And I can sure as hell not take it into account when constructing my own moral framework. Well said, thanks for this. Words to be applied to life in general. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/24 "2022-07-23T14:09:52Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > It’s a hard number to pin down with precision, but the last time I dug into it something like 90% of incarcerated people are going to come out again. I am pretty sure the number is much higher than that. Life sentences aren’t that common. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/25 "2022-07-23T14:13:43Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Life sentences aren’t that common. But people die while imprisoned. Around 300 per 100,000 each year. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/26 "2022-07-23T14:15:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Nah, it won’t make society realize anything at all. Those who care already care, and do what little they can to advocate for reform. Those who want to see people tortured as part of their punishment will squeal with glee when they hear about it. The specific folks who need to care are the ones who run prisons. Right now, they don’t care, because prison violence is something that only happens to Those People, not to People Like Us. But if they start seeing that People Like Us can be Those People that prison violence happens to, then they might start caring. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/27 "2022-07-23T14:19:18Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > As the issue of recidivism shows, the “mere” loss of freedom is not a sufficient deterrent for many criminals. So we need to torture and rape them as well? > [@Bootb](#): > > I agree that prisoners should be treated humanely, but at the same time, prison should be a sufficiently-unpleasant place that first-time offenders would want to avoid repeating the behavior that landed them there in the first place. What if how we treat them while in prison and after is what is causing the high recidivism in the first place? We often take a minor offender, put them through hell, and when they get out, deny them the chance to be a productive citizen. We focus on punishment and vengeance, and very little on rehabilitation and reintegration. Now, since not _all_ prisoners are subject to extrajudicial punishment, your desire for prison to be more unpleasant is going to be executed fairly unevenly. In order for it to reach the unpleasantness that you desire, do you wish to employ correction officers to do the raping and torturing that you seem to think would make society a better place, rather than leaving it to the other prisoners? > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > If I commit a crime and serve a sentence that isn’t in proportion to the harm I caused, why should I feel that I’ve been deterred? And if you serve a sentence that is greatly out of proportion to the harm you caused, is that a deterrence? If when you get out, you have fewer options for being a productive citizen than when you went in, is that going to lower your chances of reoffending? > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > And while I don’t support or condone someone like Epstein being beaten up in prison….I understand. You understand why other violent criminals may choose to turn their attentions on someone they can get away with harming, or you understand why the prison would allow them to do so? ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/28 "2022-07-23T14:26:53Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And if you serve a sentence that is greatly out of proportion to the harm you caused, is that a deterrence? If when you get out, you have fewer options for being a productive citizen than when you went in, is that going to lower your chances of re-offending? That’s all quite true as well. Both my question and your response are evidence of how screwed up the justice system can be to people based on, among other things, the resources they can bring to bear. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You understand why other violent criminals may choose to turn their attentions on someone they can get away with harming, or you understand why the prison would allow them to do so? I’m sure there are people in prisons who would allow something like that to happen and see it as justice, and why some criminals might feel themselves right in doing so. I don’t agree with them and I see that as not at all being helpful in helping people do better and reforming the prison system, but… I understand the urge to do so and why it would feel karmically right. If you tell me you don’t think that Epstein deserved a good punch in the mouth, we’re very different people. I wouldn’t help it to happen and the person who did it clearly committed a crime, of course, and should themselves face some kind of education on why that wasn’t a good impulse. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/29 "2022-07-23T14:43:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The specific folks who need to care are the ones who run prisons. I would say that the folks that need to care are the ones who pass laws and hire the people who run the prisons. > [@Chronos](#): > > Right now, they don’t care, because prison violence is something that only happens to Those People, not to People Like Us. They don’t care because society doesn’t care. People in prison are not like the people who run the prisons, they are criminals, and the corrections officers, the administrators, and the warden are not. > [@Chronos](#): > > But if they start seeing that People Like Us can be Those People that prison violence happens to, then they might start caring. They have never seen it that way before, cops have gone to prison and have met extrajudicial punishment there. I don’t think another bad cop being tortured to death in prison is going to suddenly make those who run prisons suddenly gain empathy they’ve never shown before. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/30 "2022-07-23T14:53:39Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > What if how we treat them while in prison and after is what is causing the high recidivism in the first place? We often take a minor offender, put them through hell, and when they get out, deny them the chance to be a productive citizen. > > We focus on punishment and vengeance, and very little on rehabilitation and reintegration. > > Now, since not _all_ prisoners are subject to extrajudicial punishment, your desire for prison to be more unpleasant is going to be executed fairly unevenly. In order for it to reach the unpleasantness that you desire, do you wish to employ correction officers to do the raping and torturing that you seem to think would make society a better place, rather than leaving it to the other prisoners? You ignorant idiotic piece of garbage. Quit putting words in my mouth, and quit pretending I said a dozen different things that I never said at all. The way that people are treated WHILE in prison, and the way that they are treated AFTER they get out of prison, are completely separate things, and yet you are deliberately combining them. The degree of unpleasantness in prison has ZERO to do with “extrajudicial punishment.” If a judge sentences somebody to solitary confinement, that is judicial punishment, not extrajudicial punishment. And no judge is going to sentence somebody to be raped or tortured. Contrary to the hellscape of your dystopian imagination, it is in fact possible to devise punishments that are both humane and unpleasant, you lying scumbag. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/31 "2022-07-23T14:57:31Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > I understand the urge to do so and why it would feel karmically right. We all have different ideas of what karma is. That’s why we don’t rely on it, we rely on a justice system where at least everything is done above board and in public, rather than arbitrarily determining punishment based on our opinions on what someone “deserves”. > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > If you tell me you don’t think that Epstein deserved a good punch in the mouth, we’re very different people. I think that I would briefly feel better in the primitive animal brain of my mind to see harm come to him, but that has nothing to do with what I think he deserves, nor what I think that society should allow to happen. > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > I wouldn’t help it to happen and the person who did it clearly committed a crime, of course, and should themselves face some kind of education on why that wasn’t a good impulse. Which is why, if we want to start punching people in the mouth, we should employ agents of the state to carry out the punishment, rather than rely on and then punish the poor impulse control of other criminals. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/32 "2022-07-23T15:14:51Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > Quit putting words in my mouth, and quit pretending I said a dozen different things that I never said at all. I didn’t, but it seems as though you have dreamed up many things to respond to that I never said. You _did_ express a desire for prison to be more unpleasant than it currently is, denying this is just you being a liar, and that is the only thing that I “put into your mouth.” > [@Bootb](#): > > The way that people are treated WHILE in prison, and the way that they are treated AFTER they get out of prison, are completely separate things, and yet you are deliberately combining them. No, you are deliberately ignoring them, by thinking that by making prison a more unpleasant place, people will refrain from reoffending when they get out. Also note that recidivism is often not because they broke another law, but because their parole officer decided that they violated some minor condition of their parole, which is another part of our justice system that needs some severe reform. > [@Bootb](#): > > The degree of unpleasantness in prison has ZERO to do with “extrajudicial punishment.” Yes, it is. Prison is about removing your liberty, not about being raped and tortured. > [@Bootb](#): > > If a judge sentences somebody to solitary confinement, that is judicial punishment, not extrajudicial punishment. That’s a controversial subject, but yes, currently judges can do so, and yes, that is judicial punishment. > [@Bootb](#): > > And no judge is going to sentence somebody to be raped or tortured. No, but that’s completely irrelevant to the entire point of the thread, in that people desire to see that happen. > [@Bootb](#): > > Contrary to the hellscape of your dystopian imagination Contrary to your inflammatory and hateful bile that you have spewed here, I have given no such imaginings. For someone who was just whining and accusing me for “putting words in my mouth” you are quite the pathetic hypocrite. > [@Bootb](#): > > it is in fact possible to devise punishments that are both humane and unpleasant It may be so, but that has nothing to do with the subject of the thread, in wishing for extrajudicial punishment. Maybe if you paid more attention to context rather than looking for an excuse to spew your hatred, you’d have realized this, and wouldn’t look like such a dumbass. > [@Bootb](#): > > you lying scumbag. I told no lies, so, I guess that’s back on you. Keep in mind that, just like extrajudicial punishment, spewing vile hatred as you have done here may make you feel better for a little bit, but it actually doesn’t make you a better person, and it will simply leave you a bitter whiny little shell of a person if you keep it up. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/33 "2022-07-23T15:36:37Z")
We should always act within the law. Failing to act within the law is why we imprison people. Punishment outside the law, whether it’s an ex-cop getting raped or killed in prison or a black suspect being dragged out of a jail cell and lynched, is always wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/34 "2022-07-23T15:54:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The specific folks who need to care are the ones who run prisons. Right now, they don’t care, because prison violence is something that only happens to Those People, not to People Like Us. But if they start seeing that People Like Us can be Those People that prison violence happens to, then they might start caring. As somebody who has run a prison, allow me to retort. Blaming the employees who run a prison for the crimes that occur in prison is like blaming the people who run a hospital for the fact the patients are sick. We did not make the criminals; all of those people became criminals while they were out living in society. And then society hands us the criminals it made and suddenly we’re assigned the blame. Presumably because society doesn’t want to accept its own responsibility for the problem. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/35 "2022-07-23T16:11:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Blaming the employees who run a prison for the crimes that occur in prison is like blaming the people who run a hospital for the fact the patients are sick. It does depend on how complicit or negligent those employees were in allowing those crimes to happen. Now, I know a few people who work in corrections, and they are good people who have put themselves in danger to protect some pretty heinous criminals from exactly the sort of thing that the subject of the OP wishes to happen. But I also see news stories of corrections officers who do allow these sorts of things to happen, and some that participate in it themselves. I think that those bad CO’s are few and far between, but sentiments as expressed by the subject of the OP makes those actions seem more acceptable. This is dangerous, not only to the prisoners who “deserve” extrajudicial punishments, but also to prison employees who may find themselves in a precarious situation trying to prevent that from happening. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/36 "2022-07-23T16:50:47Z")
Two out of the three people I know (personally, met them more than a dozen times) who went to prison, died in prison. Neither was serving a life sentence. ETA: actually I see that one died at home a few days after compassionate release. Close enough. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/37 "2022-07-23T17:27:23Z")
As someone who worked in a prison for over 20 years, two things come to my mind: 1. People are supposed to be sent to prison as punishment, not to be punished. 2. Prisons ought to be humane places in order to preserve the humanity of both the prisoners and the staff who work there. ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/38 "2022-07-23T18:07:27Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > preserve the humanity of both the prisoners and the staff who work there. It seems to me that if you don’t keep people imprisoned for the rest of their lives, they will be released some day. We will all be safer if the ex-convicts don’t see violence and rape as normal behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/39 "2022-07-23T19:17:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Blaming the employees who run a prison for the crimes that occur in prison is like blaming the people who run a hospital for the fact the patients are sick We do that already. We hold hospitals accountable when patients get hospital derived infections (because good practices are ignored) or medical errors happen (due to sloppy paperwork or training). If someone gets discharged and ends up back in the hospital within 30 days, Medicare can penalize the hospital for discharging someone not ready to go home. People in hospitals may be sick, but if they get sicker because hospital staff don’t do their job right or carefully (including letting them get harmed by other patients by the spread of infectious disease) we do blame them. If low level criminals go to prison and come out hardened criminals because policies are bad, or good polices aren’t enforced, or no one cares if dehumanizing them leads to even worse antisocial behaviors, that’s a huge problem. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/40 "2022-07-23T19:30:10Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > People are supposed to be sent to prison as punishment, not to be punished. Wait, what? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403.md?page=3)