# To those who support murder and/or rape in prison: What's the rest of your plan? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2022, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403 "2022-07-23T02:43:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/101 "2022-07-25T23:19:54Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > At times I’ve been aware of just what some of my patients did to end up in prison. I’ve found myself shaking with rage and envisioning severe corporal punishment being inflicted on them. However, that emotional reaction is no basis for justice nor humane principles or ethical action. So I vent my rage appropriately (meditation, relaxation, bitching to a trusted friend/colleague), and then act appropriately. Folks, I’m not arguing that it is justifiable to brutalize prisoners. I went out of my way to express that I did not want to see prisoners brutalized. Only that the desire for harm is not abnormal or indicative that there is something wrong with an individual. Please, nobody needs to present an argument to me against brutalizing prisoners because I’m not in favor of it. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/102 "2022-07-25T23:25:37Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Please, nobody needs to present an argument to me against brutalizing prisoners because I’m not in favor of it. Edgy 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/103 "2022-07-25T23:53:35Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > nobody needs to present an argument to me against brutalizing prisoners because I’m not in favor of it. I was agreeing with you. Wanting bad things to happen to bad people is normal in my book. I just don’t recommend acting on that emotion. It doesn’t ease the emotions. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/104 "2022-07-26T00:55:00Z")
> [@TheCuse](#): > > U.S jails are tame, compared to those. …nah. You don’t get a pass on this. Not when you lock up more people per capita than anywhere else in the world. More than El Salvador. Twice as many as Iran. Three times as many as Colombia. Four times as many as Australia. Some stories. > [@Marshall Project](#): > > New York City’s Rikers Island jail complex has long been a dysfunctional, violent place. But 2021 has been particularly bloody. So far, [12 detainees](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/22/nyregion/nyc-jail-boat-death-rikers.html) have died there, [at least five of them by suicide](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/15/nyregion/rikers-island-jail.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article). There were [39 stabbings and slashings](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21069564-govuscourtsnysd3837543870) in August, compared with seven last August, according to a late September status report by court-appointed federal monitors. > > … > > When I got to Rikers, I was in the bullpen for about five days. It looks like a slave ship in there. There were like 30 of us piled in there. People were laying beside each other all the way up to the wall, under the bench, and all the way up to the bars. There was only one sink, and the one toilet wasn’t working. There was fecal matter on the floor we had to sleep on. I wrapped myself in garbage bags to try to keep from getting contaminated. > > … > > I was in a holding pen for four or five days because they said it was hard to place transgender females [in more permanent housing]. There are no showers in the pen, the sinks were messed up, and I didn’t have a change of clothes. The toilets overflowed, so there were feces and urine everywhere. We had to use plastic bags or try our best to go in milk cartons. We were stepping in feces then sleeping on a bench where people had put their feet up. > **[Dispatch From Deadly Rikers Island: “It Looks Like a Slave Ship in There.”](https://www.themarshallproject.org/2021/10/05/dispatch-from-deadly-rikers-island-it-looks-like-a-slave-ship-in-there)** > > Rikers Island has been notorious for violence and neglect for decades. But detainees, corrections officers and officials tell us the New York City jail complex has plunged into a new state of emergency. > [@](#): > > Kutnik-Bauder has heard similar descriptions of shackling from numerous people held at Thomson. “They’re having their arms and their legs stretched out and held, separated, for hours and sometimes for days on end,” she said. “They are denied food. They are denied water. Many of them report being left in their own waste. It’s really akin to a torture chamber.” > **[How the Newest Federal Prison Became One of the Deadliest](https://www.themarshallproject.org/2022/05/31/how-the-newest-federal-prison-became-one-of-the-deadliest)** > > Fatal beatings. A “torture room.” Pairs of men held around the clock in tiny cells, tempers rising. “They’re literally afraid for their lives,” one lawyer said. > [@](#): > > The 15-year-old was being kept in round-the-clock solitary confinement. He was getting no education, in violation of state and federal law, nor was he getting court-ordered substance abuse counseling, according to two defense attorneys present. And no one in the room that day — not the judge, not the prosecutor, not the defense lawyers — appeared to have heard of the facility where Louisiana’s Office of Juvenile Justice was holding him: the Acadiana Center for Youth at St. Martinville. > > “It was as if a secret prison had been opened up,” one of the attorneys, Jack Harrison, said. “I could see on the judge’s face both shock and real anger — visceral anger.” > > They had no idea how bad it was. > > … > > On several occasions, guards responded to transgressions with violence, according to incident reports obtained through a public records request. Three slammed door hatches on teens’ hands. One struck a boy with his knee and fired pepper spray into a teen’s cell, leaving him coughing and vomiting. > **[Teens Escaped This Harsh Lockup By Digging Holes in Cell Walls](https://www.themarshallproject.org/2022/03/10/no-light-no-nothing-inside-louisiana-s-harshest-juvenile-lockup)** > > Youths in one Louisiana facility were held in solitary confinement around the clock, shackled with leg irons and deprived of an education. “This is child abuse,” one expert said. The US is unique in that it has set up a capitalist, racist pipeline to incarceration that most people that live there just don’t really care about. Out of sight. Out of mind. A system where **“74% of people in American jails have not been convicted of a [crime](https://www.csmonitor.com/Podcasts/Perception-Gaps/Season-2-Locked-Up/perception_gaps_s2_ep_01).”** Why is it so bad there? Its because you’ve been indoctrinated by political rhetoric, by the privliged, by “Law and Order.” You don’t get to point fingers at other countries and say “you are tame by comparison.” Not when your system and society is so **fundumentally broken** there really is no hope of ever getting it fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/105 "2022-07-26T01:28:12Z")
This is a marathon post and I very well may have made some formatting errors, so my apologies in advance if I did. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > So how do we ensure that cops who abuse their power don’t get cushier sentences than other assault/battery offenders simply because they’re cops? That would be an absolute miscarriage of justice. Being protected from extrajudicial violence, to include rape and murder, is not “cushier”. It’s the responsibiiltiy of the prison to ensure the safety of its charges. > [@](#): > > For all your supercilious talk about “the rest of the plan”, you don’t seem to have much of a plan to account for that. I do have a plan. Step 1: do not openly advocate for rape and/or murder in prison. Step 2: work on improving prisons so that the prison is not a hell hole or a crime academy. > [@](#): > > Here’s the plan as I see it: > > 1. Former-police convicts do not get special treatment. Again. It is not special treatment. It is protecting the prison’s charges from a real and credible threat. > [@](#): > > 1. If former-police convicts are singled out for violence, then they can be sent to “special custody” (solitary) as is done for prisoners in similar situations. Right. And how do you expect that to work when the prisoner is dead? > [@](#): > > 1. If we have too many cops in solitary because prisons are too violent, then we fix prison violence. If this is a real problem, then certainly there must be some sort of prison-reform movement composed of formerly-incarcerated cops who can provide the necessary moral leadership. The beginning of your bullet point here made sense, but the rest…what? There is no _if_. Prison violence is a real problem. There are those who are working to reform prisons. And, yes, I am part of that work. > [@](#): > > 1. Only after all those steps fail do we even _consider_ giving taking special steps to grant a privileged level of protection to former-police convicts. Yet again: it’s not a privilege to be protected from a real and credible threat. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > What is “the rest of your plan” for ensuring that cops who abuse their power don’t get cushier sentences than other assault/battery offenders simply because they’re cops? Just out of curiosity, how many times must you be told something before you realize it was said? Protection is not a cushier sentence. > [@](#): > > I mean, if you can badger someone else for a complete accounting of all the knock-on effects of an opinion, surely you’re prepared to share “the rest of your plan?” See above. My plan is to not openly advocate for rape, murder, or any other “extrajudicial punishment”, and for the prison to protect its charges from a real and credible threat. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > OP is suggesting that one’s position isn’t really valid unless they have a solution for every single knock-on effect of that position. No. I am suggesting that those who openly advocate for “extrajudicial punishment” to actually think about what they are advocating. > [@](#): > > I am merely suggesting that if OP doesn’t apply the same rigor to his own positions, then “what’s the rest of your plan” is not the gotcha he seems convinced that it is. What gotcha? Once again: my plan is to follow the law, and that includes the prison protecting its charges from a real and credible threat. It does not include openly advocating for prison violence. > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I don’t see the OP suggesting that not having having every detail worked out is the problem. I see him doing the thought experiment that people haven’t thought of the implications of their positions, and offered up some implications to highlight the short sightedness of what they’re suggesting. Exactly right. I would add that not only is what they are advocating shortsighted, but also immoral. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Eh… not so much. He’s inventing a lot of stuff that "_have_ to be accounted for. No. If one is going to openly advocate for something to be part of the punishment for a crime, then one should flesh out the whole thing. [/quote] > [@](#): > > If he can demand stupid nonsequiturs like that, then what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Specifically, I want to know if he plans to create a special snowflake jail to protect the police who violated the public trust, and if he’s thought through the incentives created by the fact that police know they’ll be sent to an easier, safer jail than the citizens they’re arresting. It’s not a non-sequitur. Openly advocate for something to happen, then someone makes that happen–to the delight of the ones so advocating–means that the agent who dispensed “justice” should receive some reward. That’s just, isn’t it? As another poster alluded to upthread: it’s not just for that agent to also be punished for dispensing the hoped for punishment. > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Nevertheless, I see those proposals as a rhetorical tool to push people making those suggestions to follow the thought paths, not as an actual call to put a proposal on the table. Of course I’m not calling for an actual plan to reward or otherwise justify vigilantism, especially if that vigilantism includes rape and/or murder. It’s as you said: a rhetorical tool to get people to think about what they are openly advocating. > [@](#): > > Thought that was pretty clear, but obviously YMMV. Well, besides to you and me, it seems to have been fairly clear to a number of posters in this thread. > [@RitterSport](#): > > Otherwise, it seems to me that we’re saying that “regular” criminals deserve to be raped and killed in prison, but ex-cops should get special treatment. I’ve been quite clear that I believe _nobody_ deserves to be raped, killed, or violated in any way while in prison. I’ve also, IMHO, been quite clear that we need to fix the prisons so that the prisons are providing the protection it should to all its charges. While waiting for that to happen, though, it is not conducive to that ideal to chuck someone into a situation where there is a real and credible–and immediate–threat to them of violence against them. > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Are folks saying cops should separated because they’re good guys? My reading is that they’re separated because they are targets for revenge and are more vulnerable, like pedophiles. They aren’t being rewarded for being cops but knowing how they could be targeted puts a burden of care on the state to mitigate that added vulnerability. Exactly. > [@](#): > > Do agree that a system solution is needed, but until then, immediate solutions have to be in place. Right. > [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m saying that, as a wimpy suburban guy who is not some kind of white supremacist, I would also be in some deep shit if I were in prison. If pedophiles and cops get some special protection, shouldn’t I also get that protection? But would you really be facing the same level of threat as a pedophile or former LEO? If you were, then, yes, the prison should provide the same level of protection as an immediate solution to the problem. The long-term solution, of course, is to ensure the safety of all the prison’s charges. That would require more staffing, more training, more tax money, etc. So long as the general public is adverse to that happening, then the prisons need to work with immediate solutions. > [@](#): > > But, maybe if cops and other people who the warden might want to side with (not pedophiles) are going to get abused, maybe the warden or the state or whoever will do something about the terrible prison conditions in this country, especially when compared to other first world countries. I don’t see the wardens as wanting to side with the former LEO. The warden should be acting on their dual obligations: to the prisoners for their safety and to the state so that failure to provide protection does not result in a massive fiscal hit to the taxpayer when the prisoner or prisoner’s survivors (in the case of murder) sues and wins. I also add that the warden should also be working to make the prisoner a place of rehabilitation. > [@Odesio](#): > > Probably nothing. I think it’s fairly normal for human beings to want bad things to happen to bad people. They deserve it, right? It’s justice, right? If you had a crowbar and found yourself locked in the same room as the man who murdered your child, would you at least consider caving his skull in? I think most of us would. So those people who express those desires, I’m not sure there’s actually anything wrong with them. It seems rather natural to me. Of course it’s natural to have that immediage feeling. The issue here is those who are openly advocating for such violence and doubling down on that advocation. > [@](#): > > Please note that I’m not in favor of brutalizing prisoners. And I suspect most people who say “Throw him in gen-pop” couldn’t actually stomach watching the brutalization or even hearing about it in detail. But then I didn’t exactly shed any tears when Jeffrey Dahmer was beaten to death by his fellow inmates while incarcerated. As you said, it’s likely most people who do not actually mean those things. But there are those who really do and advocate openly for them to happen. You should also note that it seems Dahmer was not killed because of his crimes. The prisoner who killed him also attacked another prisoner at the same time and that prisoner died from his injuries. The murderer said that “God told him to kill”. The prison administration was derelict in their duty, having left these men unsupervised. > [@Monty](#): > > Last year, a group of vigilantes tried to take over the United States government. I know where my morality on this reaches: that was wrong. I never really thought of them as vigilantes. I’ll have to give that one some thought. [/quote] [Here](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vigilante) is Merriam-Webster’s definition of _vigilante_: > a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate) > > broadly: a self-appointed doer of justice ISTM that the broad sense is exactly what those criminals attacking the Capitol were. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > What do we call it when Monty claims someone wants a murder, but Monty himself has quoted that person saying the exact opposite? I’m not sure if we’re allowed to say it in the pit, but it’s so dishonest that it seems willful to me. Advocating for someone to be “put in gen pop” becasue of what one believes about gen pop’s violence is advocating for that person to be raped, murdered, or otherwise assaulted, regardless of any hand-waving away when called on one’s advocating of such course of action. You can call me a liar in The BBQ Pit, just as I can call you a jackass. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The US is unique in that it has set up a capitalist, racist pipeline to incarceration that most people that live there just don’t really care about. It’s also a system where the resulting statistics from that racist system serve to bolster further racism against minority populations. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/106 "2022-07-26T02:20:42Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Sadly too many people believe that the intensity of their feelings about something directly correlates with the TRUTH about that something. Quoted for truth. Whenever anyone says they just really, strongly feel something I want to roll my eyes, be it love, God, or justice. Powerful emotions are meant to override rational decisions. It may have been a feature once, but in the modern world, it’s a bug. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/107 "2022-07-26T02:59:21Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > ISTM that the broad sense is exactly what those criminals attacking the Capitol were. I didn’t mean to imply that you were incorrect. It’s just I hadn’t considered the January 6th riots from that point of view, and your comment has prompted me to think about it in another perspective. And really, isn’t getting people to consider things from a different perspective the entire point of The BBQ Pit? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/108 "2022-07-26T03:19:39Z")
Cool. I like your take on that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/109 "2022-07-26T03:52:57Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > > [@Monty](#): > > > > And that is not right. As I’ve said a gazillion times on this site, _the idea is to be better than the monster you condemn_. > > Frankly, the entire idea of “deserves” is disgusting. Society reserves the right to lock up dangerous people, but extending that to the idea that people “deserve” prison (let alone extrajudicial punishment) is immoral. Now here, I have to disagree. While I do NOT believe in extra punishment torture, rape, etc in prison, the idea that people do not “deserve” TO be in prison, is asinine. Many of these people are not there simply for the sake of punishment. Some of our laws yes, should be reformed. But a lot of these people also earned their incarceration. Murder, rape, child abuse, etc – if you do any of that, you deserve to go to prison, and in many cases, you do not deserve to get out of prison. I’m not talking about middle ages style, but I don’t exactly feel sorry for some child molestor, or serial killer, living out their days behind bars. It’s also better for the rest of US, because it keeps us safe. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/110 "2022-07-26T04:14:09Z")
I think you are setting up a bit of a strawman there, or at least slightly misreading what I wrote. As I said, society reserves the right to lock up dangerous people. I have no problem with this, even for indefinite periods. In fact I have no problem with the death penalty in principle (though there are serious practical problems); if a person were truly unreformable and an ongoing danger even to other inmates, killing them might simply be the best option. Does this constitute “deserving” to go to prison? In my view, no–it is simply the practical truth that we have no means of dealing with dangerous people other than incarceration. And our means of discouraging crimes in the first place is extremely limited (although we could do a lot better with mental health treatment, social support, etc.). If we had some reliable means of dealing with these problems other than prison, it would be immoral to send people there. And of course none of this should have anything to do with how you _feel_. You’re allowed to _feel_ that people get their just deserts. Frankly, I feel the same most of the time I hear about bad things happening to terrible people. But this is not a part of how I think the justice system should work. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/111 "2022-07-26T10:16:24Z")
> [@TheCuse](#): > > Watch an episode of “To Catch a Smuggler” and that will give you an idea about how some other country’s prisons are, especially in South America. Or Russia, Japan, China. > > U.S jails are tame, compared to those. First of all, I specified other first world countries. I guess I just like America more than you, because I _expect_ us to be better than Russia, China, and countries in South America. I don’t know what Japan is doing on that list, but if they’re as bad as Russia when it comes to prisons, then they should also improve. Of course, they incarcerate 36/100k, where we incarcerate 698/100k, so the scale of our problem is worse. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/112 "2022-07-26T20:01:19Z")
In other news … > **[‘Night of terror’: Female inmates raped when male detainees bribed guard,...](https://news.yahoo.com/night-terror-female-inmates-raped-140023100.html)** > > It’s the second lawsuit that has followed the October 2021 incident that led to a guard at the Indiana jail being criminally charged. I’m not going to try to summarize it. I have a nice dinner ahead of me and don’t want to jeopardize my appetite. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/113 "2022-07-28T01:24:03Z")
USA! USA! > **[Prison Personnel Describe Horrific Conditions, and Cover-Up, at Atlanta Prison](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/26/us/politics/atlanta-federal-prisons-corruption.html)** > > The conditions at the prison, while extreme, reflect wider problems in the Bureau of Prisons’ sprawling network of 122 facilities housing about 158,000 inmates. > **[Atlanta’s federal penitentiary poses threat to entire southeast, report says](https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/atlanta/atlantas-federal-penitentiary-poses-threat-entire-southeast-report-says/GDIURSI66RFNRMMMRK4CUCTFEY/)** > > “It is now a penitentiary in name only,” the facility’s former Chief Psychologist Erika Ramirez testified. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/114 "2022-07-28T22:11:38Z")
And more from the land of the free. > **[28 female inmates in Indiana jail claim they were sexually abused by mob of...](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/28-female-inmates-indiana-jail-claim-sexually-abused-mob-male-inmates-rcna40380)** > > A federal lawsuit says the women were attacked by male inmates at the Clark County Jail after a now-charged jailer allowed inmates access to keys last year. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2022, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/115 "2022-07-29T00:49:17Z")
And up [Canada way,](https://www.yahoo.com/news/two-men-charged-murder-canadian-213850650.html), > **Two men have been arrested and charged over the targeted killing of Ripudaman Singh Malik in Canada.** > > Malik, the 75-year-old Canadian Sikh man who was acquitted in the 1985 Air India bombings, was [shot dead on July 14](https://nextshark.com/air-india-bomber-shot/) while inside his vehicle in Surrey, British Columbia. > > Canadian police have [arrested and charged](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/ripudaman-singh-malik-killing-charges-1.6533769) Tanner Fox, 21, and Jose Lopez, 23, with the first-degree murder of Malik, the Integrated Homicide Investigation Team (IHIT) said in a news release on Wednesday. I include this here because those two vigilantes were “already known to police” and have been convicted before of crimes of violence. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/116 "2023-09-18T09:22:33Z")
I just saw [this article this morning and thought of this thread](https://www.yahoo.com/news/opinion-sexual-assault-never-part-222409525.html). > **Opinion: Sexual assault should never be part of a prison term** > > or decades, prison rape and other forms of sexual abuse were [an unseemly subject of humor](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/09/opinion/contributors/the-rape-jokes-we-still-laugh-at.html) on television screens, in living rooms and in comedy clubs across America. > > Hearings I chaired two decades ago of the [National Prison Rape Elimination Commission](https://cybercemetery.unt.edu/archive/nprec/20090820154837/http:/nprec.us/publication/report/executive_summary.php) helped show me and my colleagues on the panel the degree to which prison rape, far from being a laughing matter, is a serious and sometimes even tragic problem. People who have been the victims of sexual assault while incarcerated, however, deserve not derision, but our support. It’s an opinion article; however, it has rather important information in it. One thing that I was not aware of was the unanimous vote: > In a remarkable show of solidarity, [every member of Congress](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/13/us/push-to-end-prison-rapes-loses-earlier-momentum.html) — Democrat and Republican — voted for the legislation. Today, 20 years after its passage, against the backdrop of an increasingly divided Congress and society, PREA reminds us of values that can and should unite us. The PREA is the [Prison Rape Elimiation Act of 2003](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_Rape_Elimination_Act_of_2003). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/117 "2023-09-18T13:32:10Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The PREA is the [Prison Rape Elimiation Act of 2003](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_Rape_Elimination_Act_of_2003). Damn misspellings! “The Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/118 "2023-09-20T02:01:24Z")
And in [today’s news](https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-accused-deaths-nearly-two-162100376.html): > **Texas prisoner accused of killing 22 older women is slain by cellmate while serving life sentence** > > DALLAS (AP) — A Texas prisoner [accused of killing 22 older women](https://apnews.com/article/texas-dallas-b197aed5b3ba732604dd112e453791c8) over two years, [preying on them](https://apnews.com/article/texas-dallas-suburbs-e3cf05e6b1993527ed71bc828f746650) so he could steal jewelry and other valuables, was slain Tuesday by his cellmate while serving a life sentence, prison officials said. > > Billy Chemirmir, 50, who was convicted last year in the slayings of two women, was found dead in his cell at a prison in rural East Texas, Texas Department of Criminal Justice spokesperson Hannah Haney said. He was killed by his cellmate who was also serving a prison sentence for murder, according to Haney. Did you catch that last bit? _He was killed by his cellmate who was also **serving a prison sentence for murder** , according to Haney._ From the same link, here is some information on inmate murders: > Earlier this month, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice said it was [implementing lockdown measures](https://apnews.com/article/texas-prisons-lockdown-drugs-air-conditioning-heat-bd8be72ea868ff27387afb770e6ed430) in response to “a rise in dangerous contraband and drug-related inmate homicides.” At the time of that Sept. 6 announcement, the department said there had been 16 inmate-on-inmate homicides so far this year. In 2021, there were nine such killings; in 2022, there were seven. > > Department spokesperson Amanda Hernandez said that as comprehensive searches were completed, units have been resuming normal operations. She said that as of Tuesday, the lockdown had been lifted at 75 units. The Coffield Unit, where Chemirmir was imprisoned, was among 25 units still under lockdown. So, was it “justice” for the killings of the elderly or was it related to contraband drugs? And, of course, the usual suspect commentary, congratulating one convicted murder for killing another convicted murderer, is in the comments section of this article. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/119 "2023-09-20T03:42:15Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > So, was it “justice” for the killings of the elderly or was it related to contraband drugs? Why not both? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/120 "2023-09-20T04:03:48Z")
Well, first off it’s not justice for anyone. Second, nobody knows why the surviving murderer murdered the murdered murderer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403.md?page=7)