# To those who support murder and/or rape in prison: What's the rest of your plan? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2022, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403 "2022-07-23T02:43:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/161 "2023-09-28T03:51:43Z")
As I said it’s problematic. But it can also be justified, like other increased punishments, for the number of times the same crime has been committed. But ostensibly one is being punished for the established criminal career. Mind you, I’m not justifying it; I’m just pointing out that it’s not _Minority Report_. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/162 "2023-09-28T05:33:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If you dismiss free will, then there’s no argument to be made on the topic of imprisonment. We’ll just imprison people because we can not choose otherwise. There are probably good evolutionary reasons that we have a strong _illusion_ of free will - perhaps better decision-making. And no reason to fight the illusion when are considering how best to act. It’s unsettling to realize that deep down we are not really free, but ultimately that just means that we do things for _reasons_. When the only other possibility is that we act _randomly_, I know which I prefer. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/163 "2023-09-28T05:35:41Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > It’s unsettling to realize that deep down we are not really free, but ultimately that just means that we do things for _reasons_. When the only other possibility is that we act _randomly_, I know which I prefer. There’s no such thing as free will if you choose to define free will as something that doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/164 "2023-09-28T05:37:09Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > There’s no such thing as free will if you choose to define free will as something that doesn’t exist. The burden is on you to define something that _does_ exist. To explain how someone can act _other_ than (a) through cause and effect, for reasons; or (b) randomly. Neither of these things are “free will”. If a certain set of data inputs lead your brain to choose A rather than B, by what mechanism could that choice be changed to B? Either the data inputs could be changed, that’s deterministic. Or there could just be a random effect contributing to the output. Neither deterministic nor random effects are “free will”. What else is there? What is your model for what is going on when you exercise “free will” to alter the choice from A to B, if it’s neither of those things, neither deterministic nor random? It’s an incoherent concept. It’s the homunculus. It’s trying to explain how a person makes decisions by postulating a smaller (unexplained) person living inside them. The brain obeys the laws of physics just like everything else. It carries out computation. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/165 "2023-09-28T06:21:56Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The brain obeys the laws of physics just like everything else. It carries out computation. Sure, but the brain is making decisions. It’s a complicated set of factors, combining experience, biological urges, and yes, randomness. Free will is nothing more than the sum total of all those things. That you choose to call that not “free will” is pure semantics. And you’re basing things on a false assumption. > [@Riemann](#): > > Either the data inputs could be changed, that’s deterministic. Or there could just be a random effect contributing to the output. Neither deterministic nor random effects are “free will”. It’s free will when you combine those things, because that’s what is happening. It isn’t just one or the other. It’s both combined. You’re trying to get humans to make sense when we don’t make sense. Free will doesn’t make any sense, so you reject its existence. But it exists. It’s just confusing and weird. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/166 "2023-09-28T06:36:11Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Free will is nothing more than the sum total of all those things. No, the sum of deterministic and purely random factors does not comport with our intuitive sense of free will, the kind of free will assumed in religion. The intuition that we _could have done otherwise_ in precisely identical circumstances. > [@Atamasama](#): > > That you choose to call that not “free will” is pure semantics. It’s not just semantics. It’s the realization that our intuition is wrong, that we could _not_ have done otherwise in identical circumstances. That we do things for _reasons_, and that (setting aside purely random effects) a change in output requires a change in input. That realization has strong implications for the criminal justice system. ---
**Author:** ![Imuseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbce88/32.png) [@Imuseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imuseless)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2024, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403/167 "2024-03-18T04:15:05Z")
If they want to mutilate like rip peoples arms or legs along with paralyze bad people in prison then the government have to give paralyzed mutilated bad people free homes in rehabilitation facilities in USA just like they did to Cheryl Weimer and the sex offender in Ohio because they got permanently paralyzed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-support-murder-and-or-rape-in-prison-whats-the-rest-of-your-plan/968403.md?page=8)