# To those who wish to expatriate to Canada, I pit you, cowards. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 5, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265 "2004-11-05T21:37:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Seven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Seven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seven)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/81 "2004-11-11T05:10:58Z")
The Chao Goes Mu: Thanks for the follow up. I’m too lazy right now to go back and read what I posted, but if I lashed out at you (which I think I recall doing) then I’d like to apologize. I’ve spent many years working for the solution, doing what I can, etc. But it seems these last four years the US has been taking steps back and been quite happy about doing so. That’s not how I want to raise my child so it’s time for me to cut my losses and move on. Good luck to you and we’ll keep a light on up there if your time comes as well. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_chao_goes_mu/32/3191_2.png) [@The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Chao_Goes_Mu)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/82 "2004-11-11T14:34:22Z")
> [@Seven](#): > > The Chao Goes Mu: Thanks for the follow up. I’m too lazy right now to go back and read what I posted, but if I lashed out at you (which I think I recall doing) then I’d like to apologize. > > I’ve spent many years working for the solution, doing what I can, etc. But it seems these last four years the US has been taking steps back and been quite happy about doing so. That’s not how I want to raise my child so it’s time for me to cut my losses and move on. > > Good luck to you and we’ll keep a light on up there if your time comes as well. 😉 You weren’t too scathing **Seven** but thanks for the apology, nonetheless. I hope all goes well for you up North. Where were you planning on moving? I hear British Columbia is beautiful. For now, I plan to stay here, but hey, the future is always in motion. I’ve still got letters to fire off and petitions to sign. **Sigh**. Hopefully, some day soon we can catch up with the rest of the free world when it comes to social issues, eh? I just sent a petition to the president opposing his choice of Dr. W. David Hager for the Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA) Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. Check this guy out. He’s pretty damn Draconian if you ask me. Cheers, The Chao ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Biggles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/839c29/32.png) [@Mr.Biggles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Biggles)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/83 "2004-11-11T15:50:15Z")
The irony is that there are many Canadians living in the states. Those that chose dual citizenship (thus allowing them to vote) tend to be conservatives. Which is why they relocated south to begin with. As for moving to Canada, those that are just starting the process have a good chance of still being in states by the next election. The paperwork and bureaucracy of just moving up north is time consuming. Also, as was already mentioned, it gives one the best of both worlds. The expatriate lives in a country they enjoy and they can still vote absentee in the US elections. The negative to dual-cit is, if you make over a certain amount in your income you will have to pay taxes to both countries. One last thing, marrying a Canadian does not automatically make you a citizen of Canada. In fact, there could be issues that even after you are married you won’t be allowed in the country anyway. But for those still interested, here’s some links: > **[Your Trusted Canada Immigration Source](https://www.canadavisa.com/)** > > Immigration to Canada, Visas, Permanent Residence, & Citizenship. Explore 100+ options including Express Entry, Family Sponsorship, & Temporary Visas. [http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.html](http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.html) [http://www.americanlaw.com/cdndata.html](http://www.americanlaw.com/cdndata.html) [http://gocanada.about.com/cs/weddingvenues/l/aa082601a.htm](http://gocanada.about.com/cs/weddingvenues/l/aa082601a.htm) [http://forums.about.com/ab-canadaonline/messages/?msg=2551.1](http://forums.about.com/ab-canadaonline/messages/?msg=2551.1) [http://forums.about.com/ab-canadaonline/messages/?msg=2551.1](http://forums.about.com/ab-canadaonline/messages/?msg=2551.1) Knowledge of hockey is a pre-requisite and so is this: [http://www.tsn.ca/curling/](http://www.tsn.ca/curling/) Hope all this helps ya, eh? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_chao_goes_mu/32/3191_2.png) [@The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Chao_Goes_Mu)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/84 "2004-11-11T16:21:03Z")
Mr Biggles, I thought the United States didn’t recognize dual citizenship? My understanding was that you could move to Canada on a work visa and still cast votes in the US but if you become a full fledged Canadian, the US will not recognize your US status unless you came back. I’m so confused. 😕 Also, my understanging is that when you decide to move, you have to either be accepted on a work visa and sometimes this can take a year unless you work for a company that can transfer you to a Canadian branch. If you aren’t working, Canada does not want you on the dole, so you can’t become a citizen without being gainfully employed. You can be sponsored by a Canadian, however, until you can support yourself. My knowledge on the subject is shakey at best. Others will have more accurate information. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/85 "2004-11-11T16:43:36Z")
> [@Mr. Biggles](#): > > Knowledge of hockey is a pre-requisite and so is this: > [http://www.tsn.ca/curling/](http://www.tsn.ca/curling/) You also have to accept the fact that a single point can be scored in football that doesn’t come from the PAT. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Biggles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/839c29/32.png) [@Mr.Biggles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Biggles)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/86 "2004-11-11T16:53:09Z")
[http://www.richw.org/dualcit/](http://www.richw.org/dualcit/) I saved this from a dual cit site: > [@](#): > > Incidentally, US citizens living abroad (whether or not they happen to be dual citizens) should be aware that they may be legally entitled to vote in US federal elections. Even if you have not had any residential ties to the US for years and have no plans to return, you may still vote in federal elections based on your last place of residence before moving away from the US. In such cases, federal law prohibits your former state from declaring you a resident for state tax purposes simply because you have exercised this right to vote in a federal election. For more information on how to register and vote from outside the US, contact the nearest US embassy or consulate, or visit the Web site of the Federal Voting Assistance Program at [www.fvap.gov](http://www.fvap.gov). Interesting to know, someone not born in the states can run for office: > [@](#): > > In many/most cases, a child born outside the US to a US citizen or citizens is a US citizen by birth (and, in the opinions of most legal scholars, qualifies as a “natural born” citizen eligible to become President or Vice-President). I don’t profess to be an expert, but to my knowledge, unless you have a job waiting for you, the idea of just crossing up north to live takes time for paperwork. Permanent Resident status is the label for at least three years before you can file for citizenship, dual or otherwise. However, I believe, you can remain a permanent resident without ever becoming a citizen. I don’t know if that leaves out the benefits of the health care system among other things. Which really sucks because you still will be paying taxes. You are allowed to live up there, I believe a total of 180 days, but to go back I forget the time that must pass between. That 180 day rule, I also believe, is the same for Canadians in the US. The links I posted on the About sites, really have more info than I can tell. Probably more accurate too. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/87 "2004-11-11T17:27:35Z")
> [@The Chao Goes Mu](#): > > I thought the United States didn’t recognize dual citizenship? My understanding was that you could move to Canada on a work visa and still cast votes in the US but if you become a full fledged Canadian, the US will not recognize your US status unless you came back. I’m so confused. 😕 My mom became a Canadian citizen (after spending a good 20 years as a landed immigrant) and she was still able to vote in this election. ---
**Author:** ![Survivor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@Survivor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Survivor)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/88 "2004-11-11T17:29:23Z")
There are many people with dual Canadian/American citizenship. The Canadian government is fine with it, and the US government doesn’t comment on it at all… And I’d like a cite showing that Canadians in the US tend to be conservative. I think many of us moved here for many different reasons - not necessarily because we’re conservative… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Biggles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/839c29/32.png) [@Mr.Biggles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Biggles)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/89 "2004-11-11T17:37:25Z")
No can do the cite thing on that. Only can say it as a life experience. Come across some and their politics tend towards conservatives. Is it a scientific poll? Well, no. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_chao_goes_mu/32/3191_2.png) [@The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Chao_Goes_Mu)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/90 "2004-11-11T18:02:30Z")
Ok. I’m still not sure I understand. But an answer to this question may help clarify it for me. My GF’s father is Canadian, her mother is American. My GF was born here in the States and her brother was born in Canada. My GF is under the impression her brother could never run for President because he was born in Canada. (He only lived there briefly as an infant, he resides in the US now) Is this correct? For some reason I would believe because his mom was a US citizen that not only does he have dual citizenship but that he could still run for office. Also, their dad is now applying for US citizenship, what does that do to my GF and her brother’s dual citizenship? Jesus this stuff is complex. These are all good things to know for those planning to move I would imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Biggles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/839c29/32.png) [@Mr.Biggles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Biggles)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/91 "2004-11-11T19:33:20Z")
Okay, I’ll continue the post from the site I gave you: > [@](#): > > So the question is not whether the child can “become” a US citizen, but rather how the parents can go about documenting the fact of the child’s citizenship. > > The law on US citizenship for children born outside the US depends on when the child was born, whether one or both parents are US citizens, and how long each parent lived in the US prior (not necessarily immediately prior) to the child’s birth. A table describing US law on this subject during the 20th century (for children born in wedlock) can be found on the Web site of Buffalo immigration lawyer Joe Grasmick. Check with a US consulate for an exact interpretation of the rules with regard to a specific situation; however, here’s a summary of the rules as they pertain to children born now or in the recent past. > > For children born abroad since 14 November 1986 to a married couple consisting of two US citizens, at least one of the parents must have “had a residence” in the US at some time in his or her life, prior to the child’s birth. Judging by what I was told in early 1994 by the US consulate in Toronto when I applied to have my son (born in Canada) registered as a US citizen, US officials seem to define “residence” in the US as being physical presence in the US for a total of at least one year prior to the child’s birth. However, the actual law (as enacted by Congress) does not impose this interpretation. > > For children born abroad since 14 November 1986 to a married couple consisting of one US citizen and one non-citizen, the American parent must have been “physically present” in the US for a total of at least five years prior to the birth of the child. Further, at least two years out of this five-year period must have been after the parent reached age 14 (e.g., no good if you lived in the US from birth till age five, then left the country never to return). From 24 December 1952 to 14 November 1986, the minimum requirement was ten years (five years of which had to have been after the parent’s 14th birthday). > > The time spent in the US need not have been immediately prior to the child’s birth, and it is possible to combine multiple separate periods of physical presence in the US to reach the required figures. Additionally, time spent in US territories or possessions can be counted – as can time spent abroad in the US military, in US government employment, or as a dependent spouse or child of someone posted abroad under such circumstances. > > These rules are designed to prevent the proliferation of generation after generation of “Americans” who would be citizens by descent without ever having set foot in the US. > > Different rules apply to a child born out of wedlock outside the US. If the mother of an “illegitimate” child is a US citizen, her foreign-born child is a US citizen by birth if she had ever spent at least one year’s worth of continuous literal, physical presence in the US. If the father is a US citizen (and the mother is not), the child is a US citizen only if the father’s paternity is formally established and if the father has agreed to support the child. (This more stringent requirement for an American father to pass along US citizenship to a foreign-born illegitimate child may seem discriminatory, but it was upheld by the Supreme Court in a 2001 case, Nguyen v. INS.) > > An American who has a child born outside the US should contact the nearest US embassy or consulate as soon as possible, to request an application for a Consular Report of Birth Abroad. This form needs to be filled out by both parents and returned with payment (currently US$65 or the local equivalent, money order or cash only, personal checks or credit cards not accepted, check with the consulate in advance to be sure the required fee hasn’t changed) and supporting documents including parents’ birth certificates, marriage certificate, passports, and the child’s own birth certificate. For the supporting documents to be returned, you must enclose sufficient local postage for registered mail (ask the consulate for the required amount), or else bring everything in person to the consulate (in which case they will prepare the certificate while you wait; expect the process to take about an hour). > > Note, once again, that a child born abroad under these circumstances is a US citizen by birth (in addition to possibly being a citizen of the country of birth). The “consular report of birth abroad” is not a bestowal of US citizenship, but simply an acknowledgment of same. > > 1. Is a child born outside the US to American parents legally eligible to become President? > > Most likely yes. > > The US Constitution (Article II, Section 1, Subsection 4) says: “No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United States.” > > The term “natural born citizen” is not used anywhere else in the Constitution, and it has never been the subject of any federal court ruling. Hence, its exact meaning could be subject to controversy. > > While some have suggested that perhaps a “natural born citizen” must have been born on US territory (i.e., in keeping with the definition of a citizen given in the 14th Amendment), other legal experts believe the term refers to anyone who has US citizenship from the moment of his or her birth – i.e., someone who did not have to be “naturalized” because he/she was born “natural” (i.e., born a citizen). > > The first Congress enacted a citizenship law which stated that “the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens”. [Act of Mar. 26, 1790, ch. 3, 1 Stat. 104.] This strongly suggests that the phrase was understood by the framers of the Constitution to refer to citizenship by birth. > > At least three Presidential candidates in recent memory were born outside the US proper: > > ``` > * Barry Goldwater, the 1964 Republican candidate, was born in the Arizona Territory in 1909 (Arizona did not become the 48th state until 1912). > > * George Romney, a 1968 Republican hopeful, was born in Mexico in 1907 to American parents who had moved there to escape anti-Mormon persecution in the US. > > ``` > > - John McCain, was born in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936 to American parents. Assuming there are still some relatives up there in the great white north, moving up there can be easier and sooner, as they can sponsor future citizens. This may still be true if the father maintains his dual citizenship status. Odd how as the author of this thread it’s taken a quite a different turn. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_chao_goes_mu/32/3191_2.png) [@The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Chao_Goes_Mu)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/92 "2004-11-11T20:06:06Z")
> [@Mr. Biggles](#): > > Odd how as the author of this thread it’s taken a quite a different turn. Nothing odd about it, I’m human afterall. Scroll up for the follow-up to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/93 "2004-11-16T20:38:23Z")
I heard this last night: ["Stay Home, You Pathetic Whining Maggots](http://www.spinkiller.com/index.php) by Ian Robinson. (I make no comment on the content - Only the fact this thread came to mind) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/94 "2004-11-16T21:45:36Z")
> [@scott evil](#): > > Vancouver Island secedes? It’s grey on that map. :eek: > > (Otherwise, very funny. Better than the “Jesusland” one.) > > Hell, I moved 200 km from Ottawa to Montreal so that I could be gay and out in a more enlightened city. Mind you, this was 1992, and a lot of things in the RoC have changed since then, but I still find being gay is a virtual non-issue here. Witness the total lack of resistance or surly salesclerks or leery business managers every step of the way as we’ve planned our wedding. In fact, we’ve experienced downright enthusiasm more often than not. It’s been very heartening. > > Still, I wonder if it would be this easy in Ottawa or Toronto without sticking only to gay-friendly businesses. We’ve done all of our business exactly where we’ve chosen to, including the oldest Canadian retail chain (The Hudson’s Bay Company), and Birks, the venerable jewelry institution. Not one nasty look. 🙂 I’m not gay myself, but I have heard that Toronto (my home town) is just as gay-friendly as Montreal - something that was not true 20 years ago. I believe it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/95 "2004-11-16T23:38:22Z")
I’m an American who lived in Canada for five years. Then we moved back to the States. Believe me, Canada is not Utopia. Just like all countries, Canada has problems. They just may be different from the kind of problems you experience in the US. Ed ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/96 "2004-11-17T02:03:53Z")
I can understand the reasons that were given in this thread to not move to Canada. What I don’t understand are the people who would really like to move to Canada except for the _weather_. “Let’s see: on one hand, they’ve got constitutionally guaranteed equal rights, same-sex marriage in over half the provinces, medicare, cheap university, very few strange fundamentalists in government… I like all that stuff… but it might get chilly!” _Christ, put on a sweater, okay?_ ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265/97 "2004-11-17T18:03:34Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > I can understand the reasons that were given in this thread to not move to Canada. What I don’t understand are the people who would really like to move to Canada except for the _weather_. > > “Let’s see: on one hand, they’ve got constitutionally guaranteed equal rights, same-sex marriage in over half the provinces, medicare, cheap university, very few strange fundamentalists in government… I like all that stuff… but it might get chilly!” _Christ, put on a sweater, okay?_ Besides, if they move to Toronto and it snows, they can just call the army to help them clear it. :rolleyes: Why yes, I am a former Torontonian who was living there at the time of the Big Dump. Yes, I thought calling in the army was silly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-who-wish-to-expatriate-to-canada-i-pit-you-cowards/273265.md?page=4)