# To torture or not to torture **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808 "2009-04-21T02:33:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/21 "2009-04-21T06:44:31Z")
> [@Notassmartasithought](#): > > Again, when you read **Sage Rat** ’s post in detail, the only assertion he makes about torture’s efficacy is that, “Via a process of multiple attestation (i.e. more than one source mentioned it), you can narrow in on the more probably true items.” Give me a couple of good homicide cops and they’ll get the same thing while in front of a judge. Torture is a technique used by those who don’t know any better. And? People lie. People misremember. Duress or not, all information has a chance of being invalid. That has nothing to do with the subject at hand unless you’re making an argument that homicide cops shouldn’t talk to suspects at all. Is that what you’re arguing? Oh noes, people lie 15% of the time. There’s no way to validate information, and thus we must throw away this thing known as basic human communication. ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/22 "2009-04-21T07:08:51Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > And? People lie. People misremember. Duress or not, all information has a chance of being invalid. That has nothing to do with the subject at hand unless you’re making an argument that homicide cops shouldn’t talk to suspects at all. Is that what you’re arguing? Oh noes, people lie 15% of the time. There’s no way to validate information, and thus we must throw away this thing known as basic human communication. And, and? You don’t deny your statements that the only way you can depend on the results of torture is to get “multiple attestations” (presumably also by torture) and then put the puzzle pieces together, do you? The “subject at hand” is the utility, not the legality, of torture. You made a long and detailed post about it. My analysis of it was that you agreed that the results of the torture of an idividual were less than credible, but when added to the results of the torture of many other individuals, one might, might, be able to learn something, which may or may not be useful. You have yet to respond to that analysis. What is at issue here, in your view? ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/23 "2009-04-21T07:55:53Z")
Oh, I just want to remind people that “multiple attestations” gets a George Orwell Award. Always open to further nominations… ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/24 "2009-04-21T08:24:22Z")
> [@Notassmartasithought](#): > > And, and? You don’t deny your statements that the only way you can depend on the results of torture is to get “multiple attestations” (presumably also by torture) and then put the puzzle pieces together, do you? I specifically said that you can also send people out to verify information. Basic Googling could verify any one point of data, depending on the data. So technically I do “deny” saying that. But, even so, let’s **say** that multiple attestation via torture is the only method known to man to verify data. And? How does that effect anything? Multiple attestation is just another word for “the scientific process”, for “cited material”, etc. Results must be replicatable. Why do you feel this is a point that needs to be given the hairy fish eye? I honestly don’t see what you think you’re getting at. > [@](#): > > My analysis of it was that you agreed that the results of the torture of an idividual were less than credible, but when added to the results of the torture of many other individuals, one might, might, be able to learn something, which may or may not be useful. You chose to interpret me as saying that the resultant information that comes from torture is of less than credible quality. I’ve never tortured someone for information, so I can’t say anything on that front for sure. The point, though, was that while it is almost definitely certain that some percentage of information will be wrong or made-up, that’s hardly a show-stopper. Homicide detectives do find and prosecute murderers, and CIA and GISS operatives do appear to find and capture terrorists. Historians are able to track through data to piece together history, hackers are able to circumvent purposefully confusing code to break systems, etc. The ability of humans to piece evidence together from scattered, incomplete parts is not a mystery. This is something pretty much everybody does on a daily basis as part of their job, regardless of what that job is. Is the compilation of disparate and sometimes conflicting data an imperfect methodology? Of course. But, it would be a hard argument to make that it’s not good enough for all human purposes–because unfortunately it’s the only game in town. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/25 "2009-04-21T08:30:03Z")
> [@Notassmartasithought](#): > > Oh, I just want to remind people that “multiple attestations” gets a George Orwell Award. > > Always open to further nominations… Unless you see the point where I denounced the effectiveness of torture and even more torture for creating a body of information, I don’t see where you think there’s double speak. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/26 "2009-04-21T08:39:57Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Der , why don’t you just come out and say America, instead of just generic govts. You just voted out one party and elected the opposite, who when getting appraised of the take decided that yes torture took place, but the “bad guys” would not be prosecuted. Which I take as evidence that Obama is probably also having people tortured. And the Democrats and Republicans are hardly opposite. > [@Declan](#): > > Why , when was the last time the US sent cruise missiles into some milk factory based on those interrogation professionals. Can we just be a little more realistic here der tris, most of them would not advocate torture cause its ilegal and makes them look bad and causes political problems in a pc enviroment. No, they don’t advocate for torture because it’s inferior. Ever hear of [Hanns Joachim Scharff](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff) ? Called the “Master Interrogator”, the best there was in Nazi Germany ? He achieved his successes without torture, without even raising his voice - and somehow I dont think that Nazi Germany qualifies as the “pc environment” you are talking about. Torture has been discredited as a tool of interrogation for a long time. We didn’t use it because we had to, but out of sadism. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/27 "2009-04-21T09:05:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Which I take as evidence that Obama is probably also having people tortured. And the Democrats and Republicans are hardly opposite. > > No, they don’t advocate for torture because it’s inferior. Ever hear of [Hanns Joachim Scharff](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff) ? Called the “Master Interrogator”, the best there was in Nazi Germany ? He achieved his successes without torture, without even raising his voice - and somehow I dont think that Nazi Germany qualifies as the “pc environment” you are talking about. > > Torture has been discredited as a tool of interrogation for a long time. We didn’t use it because we had to, but out of sadism. I wouldn’t say torture (or harsh treatment) is a useless information gathering technique. I would, however, very much say that the use of torture \*alone \*is. What does work best is good cop, bad cop. One guy (or institution) beats the shit out of you. The other is kind to you, and clashes with the first right in front of you. Has open and vocal dislike of him. Then they leave you alone with the nice guy, who’s aaaall about making sure you’re OK. He’s your friend. He’ll get you out of there. He won’t let the bad man hurt you again. Trust him. But you’ve got to help him do that, too… That’s the caricature, but this kind of thing can be done in very insidious ways. And that’s what works. It’s what Scharff used. There’s a very good (and frightening) account of such a technique in Clancy’s book where a pilot is shot down over Viet Nam… _Without Remorse_ I think ? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/28 "2009-04-21T09:47:31Z")
> [@Cheesy\_goodness](#): > > Reading some of the memos just released by the Obama DOJ got me thinking. > > There’s no doubt that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and others held in Gitmo and Bagram committed horrible atrocities that led to the deaths of thousands of innocent people. They also might know more information that could potentially affect many lives in the future. They’re some bad guys, to say the least. > > These bad guys were tortured. They were made to stay awake for up to 11 days, waterboarded hundreds of times and physically and mentally abused among other things. But can torture ever be justified? > > Personally, I would like to think that torture is always wrong, but I can’t say for sure that I wouldn’t want to personally peel off a terrorist’s fingernails if, say, my mother had been killed. Is there a line that can be drawn to torture someone or not based on the extent of atrocities committed or potential value of information being withheld? > > How do you all feel? You state there is ‘no doubt’. How many people from Guantanamo Bay have been prosecuted in court? Before you started torturing them, how did you know they were guilty? How about the innocent people you’ve tortured? (Many Guantanamo Bay prisoners have been released; some due to mistaken identity.) Is it OK to torture Americans to see if your country is about to be attacked? Can you point to a successful campaign against terrorism where torture won the day? (I refer you to the decades of Northern Ireland terrorism where the British Government used torture (milder than waterboarding, but still…) and all they did was create martyrs and prolong the conflict.) Oh and torture is morally reprehensible. But if you delight in using it, why don’t you bring in the children of suspected terrorists and torture them in front of their parent. I’m sure that would be far more effective. What parent would keep quiet as you peeled the skin off their child? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/29 "2009-04-21T12:16:11Z")
> [@glee](#): > > But if you delight in using it, why don’t you bring in the children of suspected terrorists and torture them in front of their parent. I’m sure that would be far more effective. What parent would keep quiet as you peeled the skin off their child? As I recall, we did have children raped and attacked by dogs in front of their parents at Abu Ghraib. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/30 "2009-04-21T13:05:36Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > (..) Results must be replicatable. Why do you feel this is a point that needs to be given the hairy fish eye? I honestly don’t see what you think you’re getting at. You seriously don’t see his point? You don’t see that what you suggest leads to widespread torture that consequently needs to be executed by a professionalized organization? We have names for countries that do such things; \*democracy \*isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/31 "2009-04-21T13:51:35Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Unless you see the point where I denounced the effectiveness of torture and even more torture for creating a body of information, I don’t see where you think there’s double speak. It’s doublespeak because you’re twisting a horrible atrocity, mass torture, making it sound like a harmless bit of procedural police work. “Multiple attestations” = destroying lives and inflicting unspeakable pain. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/32 "2009-04-21T14:14:36Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] As I recall, we did have children raped and attacked by dogs in front of their parents at Abu Ghraib. [/QUOTE] That’s a new one on me. Sickening if true. Do you have a cite? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Cheesy\_goodness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Cheesy\_goodness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesy_goodness)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/33 "2009-04-21T14:25:21Z")
> [@glee](#): > > You state there is ‘no doubt’. How many people from Guantanamo Bay have been prosecuted in court? > Before you started torturing them, how did you know they were guilty? > > How about the innocent people you’ve tortured? (Many Guantanamo Bay prisoners have been released; some due to mistaken identity.) > Is it OK to torture Americans to see if your country is about to be attacked? > > Can you point to a successful campaign against terrorism where torture won the day? (I refer you to the decades of Northern Ireland terrorism where the British Government used torture (milder than waterboarding, but still…) and all they did was create martyrs and prolong the conflict.) > > Oh and torture is morally reprehensible. > But if you delight in using it, why don’t you bring in the children of suspected terrorists and torture them in front of their parent. I’m sure that would be far more effective. What parent would keep quiet as you peeled the skin off their child? I didn’t mean to imply that everyone we tortured was actually guilty of a crime. I know we detained many innocent people. What I meant was that a few of the more high profile detainess are most likely guilty of SOMETHING. Not to say that that makes them OK to torture. I agree that torture is morally reprehensible. I was merely trying to see it from the other side. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/34 "2009-04-21T14:32:24Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > [CIA Tactics Endorsed in Secret Memos](http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/torture/2008/1015tacticsendorsed.htm) > > [CIA director Michael Hayden says coercive and harsh interrogations techniques worked - cleveland.com](http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/01/cia_director_michael_hayden_sa.html) Neither of those cites says anything remotely like what you claim they say. The first one is basically a quick trip through the history of ass-covering for torture. We learn a few specifics about how the CIA and the Bush Administration each tried to set things up so that they could blame the other when their crimes came to light. At no point does that article say that the CIA or anybody else ever garnered a single piece of information from torture. The second one is just as irrelevant. It’s about former CIA Director Michael Hayden testifying before Congress. In that testimony, he was mostly interested in insisting that he stopped the practice of waterboarding, and vigorously denying that he ever used torture. So obviously his testimony does not back up your pro-torture arguments. What he does say is that “harsh interrogation techniques … successfully got the maximum amount of information, particularly out of the Abu Zubaydahs, the Khalid Sheik Muhammeds.” (Who knew there were more than one of those guys?) Even assuming that we could trust Hayden–which we can’t, because he has a long history of lying and cover-ups related to torture–this tells us nothing. “The maximum amount of information”, but information about what? It could be information about daffodil prices, for all that we know. At no point does Hayden say or suggest in any way that ‘harsh interrogation techniques’ produced any information that was in any way relevant to terrorism or the military. Furthermore, **Der Trihs** was specifically asking you to provide information about the torture techniques used in Iraq. Neither of those articles even mentions Iraq. So to summarize, we’re back to square one. You claim that “Torture as a means of information gathering is essentially always useful.” The reality is that torture is never useful. There is no instance in the entire history of the human race when anyone has garnered any useful information at all from torture. Not one. And your bogus, irrelevant cites prove that fact more thoroughly than I could ever hope to. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/35 "2009-04-21T15:18:57Z")
By the way, for those who want some sold, expert proof that torture can never produce useful information, I’ve got some. The CIA cites Dr. James Horne’s research as proof that sleep deprivation is a useful technique for extracting information, but they’re lying as usual. Horne himself is now speaking out and making it very clear that you cannot get useful information by that means. Read all about it here: [http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian\_wings/2009/04/prof-james-horne-on-the-memos.html](http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2009/04/prof-james-horne-on-the-memos.html) ---
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/36 "2009-04-21T16:16:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Garbage. Torture is utterly evil; everyone involved should be hunted down and at the very least imprisoned for life. Obviously, an armchair general with his six pack in one hand and fondue fork in the other spouting contradictions. Imprisonment is torture employed to extract correct answers at parole hearings. Torturing terrorists, use it or lose it. This should be followed by execution and burial with swine offal. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/37 "2009-04-21T16:19:13Z")
And our brave lads, convicted of murdering innocent civilians? Do these same stern standards apply, or are you inclined to be more understanding? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/38 "2009-04-21T16:21:41Z")
You have to watch out when waving about a fondue fork…you could take out someone eye that way! -XT ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/39 "2009-04-21T16:28:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As I recall, we did have children raped and attacked by dogs in front of their parents at Abu Ghraib. Oh come on-you cannot drop something like that into a thread without a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/40 "2009-04-21T16:41:15Z")
Put me down in “not torture” group. Torture is simply wrong and should be banned as a matter of principle regardless of whether or not it’s effective. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808.md?page=3)