# To torture or not to torture **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808 "2009-04-21T02:33:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/61 "2009-04-22T03:42:56Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > I’m joining your group. So when 90 out of 92 (i.e. 97.8% of) terrorist attacks can be successfully avoided by coercive interrogation of captured terrorists, that holds no sway in your reasoning? Figure that the average terrorist attack kills 15. Figure further that there are an average of 4 terrorists directly in charge of carrying out an attack. Now figure that an average of 1/3rd of captured terrorists are tortured (I saw something to this effect somewhere in my research.) So, 90 prevented attacks means 1,350 lives saved. The cost of saving those lives is varying levels of torture (which, in most cases, amounts to no more than sleep deprivation, forced nudity, and blaring rock n’ roll) of 120 people who each were planning to murder innocent people. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/62 "2009-04-22T03:53:29Z")
Well, when you put it like that, seems perfectly reasonable. But perhaps you will tell us where these numbers come from, if that’s not too personal a question… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/63 "2009-04-22T04:00:59Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > So when 90 out of 92 (i.e. 97.8% of) terrorist attacks can be successfully avoided by coercive interrogation of captured terrorists, that holds no sway in your reasoning? > > Figure that the average terrorist attack kills 15. Figure further that there are an average of 4 terrorists directly in charge of carrying out an attack. Now figure that an average of 1/3rd of captured terrorists are tortured (I saw something to this effect somewhere in my research.) So, 90 prevented attacks means 1,350 lives saved. The cost of saving those lives is varying levels of torture (which, in most cases, amounts to no more than sleep deprivation, forced nudity, and blaring rock n’ roll) of 120 people who each were planning to murder innocent people. Completely made up, all of it. Useful intelligence coming from torture is vanishingly rare ( and I only say “rare” on the assumption that as some time in human history it must have worked, if only by luck; not because of any evidence ). You grossly understate just how badly we treat people. You completely ignore our innocent victims; you just assume that the people we torture are terrorists. And you assume that the people attacking us ARE terrorists, and that the people they attack are innocent ( hint : torturers aren’t innocent ). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/64 "2009-04-22T05:54:46Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > So when 90 out of 92 (i.e. 97.8% of) terrorist attacks can be successfully avoided by coercive interrogation of captured terrorists, that holds no sway in your reasoning? > > Figure that the average terrorist attack kills 15. Figure further that there are an average of 4 terrorists directly in charge of carrying out an attack. Now figure that an average of 1/3rd of captured terrorists are tortured (I saw something to this effect somewhere in my research.) So, 90 prevented attacks means 1,350 lives saved. The cost of saving those lives is varying levels of torture (which, in most cases, amounts to no more than sleep deprivation, forced nudity, and blaring rock n’ roll) of 120 people who each were planning to murder innocent people. I suppose you have a cite for all those numbers? Or maybe a couple? Or are we just supposed to believe your word? Cites, please. ---
**Author:** ![Levolor\_the\_Blind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bc8723/32.png) [@Levolor\_the\_Blind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Levolor_the_Blind)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/65 "2009-04-22T06:24:41Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Okay, so say we get a tip that one guy is a terrorist. We raid his room and find that he has anti-American writings and schematics for a bomb timer. There’s no apparent evidence of who his compatriots might be, where they meet, or where they would get their supplies from. The guy himself steadfastly refuses to say anything. Raid my house and you’ll find similar things. And I’m not a terrorist, just a guy who has a lot of books and downloads a lot of weird shit off the Internet. But in your scenario that’s enough to convict me of terrorism and give the authorities the go ahead to torture me. And I’ll talk, because sooner or later I’ll reach a breaking point (probably sooner) because no one will step in and say, “This guy’s just a schlub”; I’m already a known terrorist with books and things. So they go out and bust my friends (whom I’ve squealed on just to stop the torture). They torture them. They break and confess just to stop the torture. And so it goes, like an S&M version of Amway. Think I’m wrong? Read up on the history of witch hunts. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/66 "2009-04-22T06:32:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, when you put it like that, seems perfectly reasonable. But perhaps you will tell us where these numbers come from, if that’s not too personal a question… Shhhh. He’d tell you–but then he’d have to torture you to find out why you want to know so badly. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/67 "2009-04-22T09:14:27Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Okay, so say we get a tip that one guy is a terrorist. We raid his room and find that he has anti-American writings and schematics for a bomb timer. What’s the difference between a bomb timer and a regular timer? Is being a trained electrical engineer who does not approve of regimes that use torture enough evidence that someone’s a terrorist? > [@](#): > > There’s no apparent evidence of who his compatriots might be, where they meet, or where they would get their supplies from. The guy himself steadfastly refuses to say anything. Have you considered the possibility that he doesn’t _have_ compatriots, and isn’t getting supplies from anywhere? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/68 "2009-04-22T11:56:46Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > What’s the difference between a bomb timer and a regular timer? The bomb one ticks a lot louder. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/69 "2009-04-22T13:39:15Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The bomb one ticks a lot louder. It also has red LED numbers and an obvious “Stop” button. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/70 "2009-04-22T13:55:35Z")
[Report: Abusive tactics were used to find Iraq-al Qaida link](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/66622.html) > [@](#): > > The Bush administration put relentless pressure on interrogators to use harsh methods on detainees in part to find evidence of cooperation between al Qaida and the late Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein’s regime, according to a former senior U.S. intelligence official and a former Army psychiatrist. > > Such information would’ve provided a foundation for one of former President George W. Bush’s main arguments for invading Iraq in 2003. No evidence has ever been found of operational ties between Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network and Saddam’s regime If torture were an effective method of getting this sort of information, Bush and friends would have known for sure that Saddam’s Iraq had fuck-all to do with 9/11, and not wasted our nation’s treasure and reputation on a stupid, useless conquest. Instead, we have a costly mess, and Cheney, as recently as this past January, still insists there was an operational connection between bin Laden and Saddam. Way to go torture! You have served this nation well. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/71 "2009-04-22T14:18:19Z")
Part of the reason they tortured was that the CIA was sorely lacking Arab speaking operatives. We lacked translators and agents. They were doing a terrible job of info gathering and could not supply good intelligence. So in desperation they went to a low and ugly methodology. It was due to decades of poor work at the agencies. It was the fault of poorly run agencies. When they suddenly needed info on Iraq and Al Queda , it was not there. They had to do something fast. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/72 "2009-04-22T14:32:42Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I suppose you have a cite for all those numbers? Or maybe a couple? Or are we just supposed to believe your word? > > Cites, please. I’ve got some pliers and a blowtorch. We’ll find out soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/73 "2009-04-22T15:38:13Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > What other methods? Unlike CSI, you can’t just walk into a room and determine everyone who has been in there in the last four years and what they were doing every time they were in the room. > > Okay, so say we get a tip that one guy is a terrorist. We raid his room and find that he has anti-American writings and schematics for a bomb timer. There’s no apparent evidence of who his compatriots might be, where they meet, or where they would get their supplies from. The guy himself steadfastly refuses to say anything. > > Well so, where do you go from there? Since we’re in a fantasy scenario, I’d say that we should send in a unicorn who is capable of mind-reading. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/74 "2009-04-22T15:41:17Z")
Of course we all to admit that they tortured a lot of innocent people too. From your viewpoint ,you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet. For people who are being tortured ,you have made an enemy of them and their families and friends. We accept the expression “collateral damage”,so easily. But if it were you and your neighbors ,you may not understand so well. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/75 "2009-04-22T16:35:05Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Part of the reason they tortured was that the CIA was sorely lacking Arab speaking operatives. We lacked translators and agents. They were doing a terrible job of info gathering and could not supply good intelligence. So in desperation they went to a low and ugly methodology. It was due to decades of poor work at the agencies. It was the fault of poorly run agencies. Let’s not just blame the poorly run agencies for the lack of Arab translators. Don’t forget our [idiotic policy against gays in the military](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/08/opinion/08benjamin.html). ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/76 "2009-04-22T16:43:42Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [Report: Abusive tactics were used to find Iraq-al Qaida link](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/66622.html) Pretty damning stuff, though shouldn’t be news to anyone other than the Rightwingers living under a rock: > [@](#): > > “The main one is that everyone was worried about some kind of follow-up attack (after 9/11). But for most of 2002 and into 2003, Cheney and Rumsfeld, especially, were also demanding proof of the links between al Qaida and Iraq that (former Iraqi exile leader Ahmed) Chalabi and others had told them were there.” > > It was during this period that CIA interrogators waterboarded two alleged top al Qaida detainees repeatedly — Abu Zubaydah at least 83 times in August 2002 and Khalid Sheik Muhammed 183 times in March 2003 — according to a newly released Justice Department document. > > “There was constant pressure on the intelligence agencies and the interrogators to do whatever it took to get that information out of the detainees, especially the few high-value ones we had, and when people kept coming up empty, they were told by Cheney’s and Rumsfeld’s people to push harder,” he continued. > > “Cheney’s and Rumsfeld’s people were told repeatedly, by CIA . . . and by others, that there wasn’t any reliable intelligence that pointed to operational ties between bin Laden and Saddam, and that no such ties were likely because the two were fundamentally enemies, not allies.” > > Senior administration officials, however, “blew that off and kept insisting that we’d overlooked something, that the interrogators weren’t pushing hard enough, that there had to be something more we could do to get that information,” he said. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/77 "2009-04-22T16:53:47Z")
Totrure is better than regular interrogation methods - it gives you the information you want to hear, without the usual limits of whether it’s true or not! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/78 "2009-04-22T18:44:50Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > It also has red LED numbers and an obvious “Stop” button. But you have to wait until it reads 0:07 before you can push it, or cut the (red) wire. 0:07 if you’re a British agent. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/79 "2009-04-22T19:01:10Z")
Quoth **Sage Rat** : > [@](#): > > What other methods? Unlike CSI, you can’t just walk into a room and determine everyone who has been in there in the last four years and what they were doing every time they were in the room. > > Okay, so say we get a tip that one guy is a terrorist. We raid his room and find that he has anti-American writings and schematics for a bomb timer. There’s no apparent evidence of who his compatriots might be, where they meet, or where they would get their supplies from. The guy himself steadfastly refuses to say anything. Well, obviously, if we have no apparent evidence, then the first step would be to get some evidence. I’m not a forensic detective, so I don’t know the exact methods used, but I would imagine that one could start by talking to people who know him (friends, relatives, or at least neighbors), subpoenaing his phone and internet records from the phone company and ISP, tracking money that’s going into and out of his accounts, and if we haven’t been so bumblingly inept as to let him now we’re onto him, bugging his home and trailing him when he goes out. And I’m sure that a real detective could think of several other avenues of investigation. Any one of those could yield actual usable information, or at worst if we didn’t get useful information out of them, we’d at least know that we didn’t have any information. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808/80 "2009-04-22T19:28:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, when you put it like that, seems perfectly reasonable. But perhaps you will tell us where these numbers come from, if that’s not too personal a question… The doctor with the little flashight and rubber glove will be with you shortly… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/493808.md?page=5)