Yes, I think you are reading it wrong. Nobody’s saying that merely deciding to drive such a car is wrong. On the other hand, driving a heavier car with the specific intent of transferring damage to other vehicles… that’s another issue.
I was quoting your exact words. If you didn’t mean to say “no responsibility whatsoever,” then perhaps you shouldn’t have said that.
Mere self-protection is not selfish. Self-protection to the point of deliberately endangering others, is.
Granted. Howver, the name alone suggests some claim toward objectivity (as opposed to saying, “All moral precepts are subjective”). In contrast, there is nothing objective about deliberately exalting one’s own safety at the expense of other drivers.
Note that I’m NOT saying it’s immoral to drive an SUV. However, if your specific intent is to ensure that other vehicles will absorb the brunt of impact-- well, that’s just plain wrong.
I’m in agreement with SPOOFE here on several points. We do have a responsibility toward the safety of other drivers and their passengers. However, the mere possibility of hurting others should not preclude the use of SUV’s. SPOOFE correctly pointed out that SUVs handle differently from standard autos, and so this danger can be mitigated through proper instruction and training.
However, I also agree with Ned when he says, “You are responsible for someones safety to the extent that reasonable people would determine that your actions pose unreasonable levels of danger to others.” Ultimately, I think it boils down to the question of HOW dangerous SUV’s are, and how much of this can be compensated through training and education.
Please note: I’m saying this as someone who was nearly killed last week by a speeding tailgater. She was driving a big old Lexus 4x4. My poor little Toyota Corolla was totalled, and it never stood a chance.
Well, as noted earlier, this is not entirely a matter of rights. Patrons have a right to tip 10% in US restaurants, although 15% is the standard practice. They also have a right to tip nothing. Whether they can do this without being jerks (assuming decent service) is another matter.
Taken from another angle, in a collision between a small car and motorcycle, the latter would indeed be more likely to become road kill. Yet that doesn’t imply that the motorist should choose to drive a two-wheeled vehicle: the enhancement to the cyclist’s (or public’s) safety would be outweighed by the reduction in the driver’s own safety, since motorcycles are poorly designed from a safety point of view.
As for trucks, yes, I think it would be immoral to drive an fully-loaded eighteen wheeler around in order to enhance one’s own safety. Nobody does that of course: trucks are driven to transport products and earn a living. (Similarly, people drive SUVs for reasons other than safety. But the Spoof seems to be interested in the safety angle alone.)
Sam:
Well, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety concluded that sport utility vehicles should have the liability portion of their insurance raised, because of higher payouts. The 1998 study compared claims for the largest SUVs ($107) with smaller SUVs ($94) and passenger cars ($71). (Money Magazine 4/98) The same study noted that when a car collides with an SUV or pickup, the car’s occupants are four times more likely to die than the SUV’s occupants. (Money, 10/99)
Given the design characteristics of the SUV, this shouldn’t be surprising. Still, my understanding is that various design changes are in the pipeline and may be phased in over time.
Re: vehicles
We have a responsibility to follow the traffic laws of our respective States / Provinces. Speed limits are there for a reason as people who exceed the posted limit or drive well below the limit pose a hazard to other people on the road. Doing either demonstrates a lack of responsibility and endangers other people who share the road.
I believe that it is within all of our rights to drive the vehicle of our choice. I used to drive a Toyota Landcruiser with reinforced steel bumpers which curbed out at 6000 lbs. A friend of mine was hit in an intersection by a 5 ton delivery truck while driving his Landcruiser, the delivery truck had to be towed away while my friend only had to straighten a crumpled bumper and drive home.
When I was shopping for a family vehicle a little over a year ago my first choice was to get a 2500 series Suburban diesel 4x4. The distance from the ground to the bumpers is close to three feet and the curb weight is over 4 tons (8600 lbs). I once parked my SIL’s Nissan next to a Suburban 4X4 and the truck’s bumpers were above the bottom of the windowsills. If Lola would have been comfortable driving a behemoth like this, one would be parked in our driveway right now instead of our Aerostar.
The reason I was looking for another vehicle was because some asshole in a pickup ran through an intersection at nearly 60 miles per hour and destroyed our old car. Lola happened to be driving home from school at the time and also happened to be 7 months pregnant. I consider it a miracle that she escaped with only a broken ankle and that our then unborn daughter was unhurt. The driver of the truck was unhurt and was able to drive his 3/4 ton pickup home.
My responsibility in this case is to ensure that my wife and kids are as safe as possible and to protect them from the maniacs we have to share the roads with. I have no responsibility to protect the drivers of the hopped up Civics who feel that they have to race everywhere and since this is pickup country I would like to be able to survive any more attacks by truck driving rednecks.
On the issue of motorcycles: If you decide to drive a motorcycle you should understand that you are going to lose if you get into an accident with a car no matter who was at fault. You must assume the risks that come with choosing two wheels as your mode of transportation, if not… get a car.
In general I believe that we must ensure that our actions do not endanger the safety of the people around us. If a person is in a difficult situation and we can offer assistance without serious risk to ourselves, I believe that it is our duty to offer that assistance.
If we decide to own a gun we are responsible to ensure that the weapon is kept secured and does not ever pose a threat to our neighbours.
If we own a dog we are resonsible to see that the animal does not pose a threat to anyone outside of our own property and realize that we may be held responsible for that animals mis-behaviour. If the animal is trained as a guard dog then signs should be posted stating that fact.
Just wanted to point out that this is backwards. SUVs do handle differently and most of those characteristics mean poor accident avoidance. Longer braking distance and poor handling aren’t offset by somewhat better visibility. Cars were designed for maneuverability, SUVs are designed at a cost to maneuverability. I have no idea where he got the idea that they might be better on a wet road.
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And I have no idea where you got the idea that I thought they might be better on a wet road.
They’re bigger. They’re heavier. They’re roomier. They’re sturdier. That sums up just about everything I’ve ever said about SUV’s.
Don’t go makin’ up stuff just 'cuz you wanna cause trouble, now, Ned.
Feynn, Guard dogs are an interesting comparison. I was struggling with an analogous situation where increasing my own safety might be at a cost to someone else. I have trouble with guns and dogs in this regard because the risk imposed on neighbors is so low and when it does manifest itself will often be accompanied by criminal liability.
I notice you set up a false reality to justify your logic, there seem only to be pick up trucks and insane honda civic drivers. The woman with three children in her toyota doesn’t seem to exist in your part of the world.
My appologies Spoofe. I should have checked upthread, the handling argument including slippery (not wet) roads was sam staone’s.
No problem, Ned.
(Jeez, I felt like a sci-fi cartoon character saying that… “Up, up, and away, Cap’n Ned!” Sorry, just a bit of late-night sleep-deprived humor… :D)
I have to chuckle at that coming from Spoofe Bo Diddly.
Actually, a 4 wheel drive is better when excelerating on a wet road. I put mine in 4 wheel when it is raining hard, so if I have to excelerate hard(to avoid and accident), it won’t fishtail. There were a couple of times in my jeep that this has saved me from getting run into by someone who doing something stupid. My Yukon has an auto 4x4 mode where if it starts to slip it will kick into 4x4 on its own. Havent been in a situation(since I got the Yukon) that this has been an issue yet .
I think Ned was referring to braking on a wet road. Simple laws of physics say that you need more force to stop a bigger object, whether it be an SUV, a drunken elephant, or just a really really really fat guy chasing an ice cream truck.
Since SUV’s (well, the larger ones, anyway… some smaller SUV’s don’t weigh much more than some larger cars) are heavier, the driver has to take this into account, and put extra distance between themselves and any cars in front of them.