# To what extent are Western democracies chrysocracies in disguise? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2007, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-are-western-democracies-chrysocracies-in-disguise/410345 "2007-07-03T13:45:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-are-western-democracies-chrysocracies-in-disguise/410345/41 "2007-07-04T16:35:06Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] I don’t want to hijack things too far here…just going to respond to this and then let it go. If you want to discuss it further (after providing a few cites I request) then we can start another thread on it mswas. Tell you what…why don’t you give me a cite for how large this relationship was between Hitler and the industrialists BEFORE the Nazi’s came to power? It will be a good learning experience for you as its obviously that you don’t know. Just to give you a hint, this would be the time period between the 1920’s and, say, 1933. Lets see how many industrialists supported the Nazi movement and Hitler during this period, ehe? [/quote] I never said that. Does that help? Hitler may have come to power by being a demagogue, as I said in my last post, but if it were not for the help of industry, he would have been able to do absolutely nothing outside of Germany. > [@](#): > > Then you are changing the goal posts basically (and then calling it ridiculous when you are called on it). Here is what you were originally disputing: “Hitler’s power base was not industrialists. The Nazi Party was a party of street thugs, losers, unemployables, nihilists, and burned-out veterans.” His ORIGINALY power base in fact did NOT include industrialists. Unless you want to show us that this statement is false…with like a cite or something. No, you were wrong. You said I said something I didn’t say. I attempted to clarify. That is NOT changing the goal posts. > [@](#): > > It always makes me roll my eyes when someone on a message board makes a statement that his/her views are supported by experts (in this case historians) while not providing any support that this is correct. So…what historians support your theory that Hitlers and the Nazi’s BASE came support came from industrialists before they were in power? I would love to see a cite by a noted historian claiming this. “Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power.” – Benito Mussolini … Like you said, arguing this is not worth hijacking the thread. You are trying to say I said things I didn’t say, and any attempt for me to clarify what I was trying to say will be referred to as ‘moving the goalposts’. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2007, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-are-western-democracies-chrysocracies-in-disguise/410345/42 "2007-07-04T16:56:33Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] mswas writes: \> In the case of the United States, the wealth of the president before becoming \> president is barely relevant as to whether or not the US is a Chrysocracy, \> though the bulk of this thread is devoted to that triviality. If this is so, it’s not the fault of most of the posters in this thread. The OP asked, “To what extent is wealth a prerequisite for success (i.e. becoming Prime Minister, President or Chancellor) in each of these models and why?” Most of the posters in this thread are answering that question. It’s hardly their fault that the question asked in the OP is different from the question in the thread title. [/QUOTE] Conceded. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2007, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-are-western-democracies-chrysocracies-in-disguise/410345/43 "2007-07-04T16:59:02Z")
> **[Fritz Thyssen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Thyssen)** > > Friedrich "Fritz" Thyssen (9 November 1873 – 8 February 1951) was a German businessman, born into one of Germany's leading industrial families. He was an early supporter of the Nazi Party but later broke with it. > Thyssen was born in Mülheim in the Ruhr area. His father, August, was head of the Thyssen mining and steelmaking company, founded by his father Friedrich and based in the Ruhr city of Duisburg. Friedrich studied mining and metallurgy in London, Liège, and Berlin, and after a short peri... ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2007, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-are-western-democracies-chrysocracies-in-disguise/410345/44 "2007-07-04T20:22:23Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] I never said that. Does that help? Hitler may have come to power by being a demagogue, as I said in my last post, but if it were not for the help of industry, he would have been able to do absolutely nothing outside of Germany. [/quote] Which he was the legally and lawfully elected ruler of, with absolute dictatorial powers, combined with wide-spread popularity and public support, and the aboslute obedience of the military, and his own private army. Yea, but y’know, it’s all because of those wealthy industrialists. I try not to snark, but seriously **mswas** , :rolleyes: . You have failed to provide even one shred of evidence that wealthy backers was the cause or even a significant cause of Hitler’s rise to power. Your cute uote from Mussolini says.. nothing at all. Yep, absolute dictators want to control industry and finance, too. Amazingly, you are not the first man in history to have noticed this. They kinda did this is, oh, a hundred of so different cases. And mysteriously, these “mergers” of industry and finance or whatnot and politics always emerged with politics on top in control. Odd, ain’t it. It’s almost as if absolute dictators just took over everything, huh? You are producing with great flourish the most blindingly obvious things and seemt to be amazed at them. Here’s a hint: no one else is in the least bit surprised or even particularly interested. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2007, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-are-western-democracies-chrysocracies-in-disguise/410345/45 "2007-07-04T20:43:50Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] > **[Fritz Thyssen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Thyssen)** > > Friedrich "Fritz" Thyssen (9 November 1873 – 8 February 1951) was a German businessman, born into one of Germany's leading industrial families. He was an early supporter and financial backer of the Nazi Party but later broke with it. He was arrested in 1941 and was confined in Nazi concentration camps. Liberated at the end of the war in Europe, he was found to be a "lesser offender" in denazification proceedings and was fined. He emigrated to Argentina in 1950 where he died. Thyssen was born in M... [/QUOTE] Your own cite shows that you are wrong: > [@](#): > > Thyssen was impressed by Hitler and his bitter opposition to the Treaty of Versailles, and began to make large donations to the party. **In this he was unusual among German business leaders** , as most were traditional conservatives who regarded the Nazis with suspicion. Postwar investigators found that he had donated 650,000 Reichsmarks to right-wing parties, mostly to the Nazis, although he **remained a member of the German National People’s Party until 1932** , and did not join the Nazi Party until 1933. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-are-western-democracies-chrysocracies-in-disguise/410345/46 "2007-07-05T19:18:22Z")
Yes, wrong about the thing I didn’t say. I concede that. About the thing I did say however, Hitler could never have conquered Europe without the support of the Industrialists. Having elected power does not guarantee the cooperation of the body politic. Germany COULD have been in turmoil. It COULD have been another corrupt dictatorship where it’s more about the dictator struggling to maintain power internally, but it wasn’t. He consolidated power with the industrialists, turned the industry into a war machine, and successfully blitzed mainland Europe. He did that, with the help of industrialists, and could not have done it without their help. Or at the very least it would have been far more difficult. So I will concede that the thing I never said, that everyone feels the need to correct is wrong. In that case I’m glad I didn’t say it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-are-western-democracies-chrysocracies-in-disguise/410345/47 "2007-07-05T20:21:39Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Having elected power does not guarantee the cooperation of the body politic. No…but having a grass roots movement that was willing and even eager to do public violence helps a lot. What you don’t seem to be able to grasp here is that by the time Hither got the industrialists (and the military) behind him he ALREADY had ultimate power in Germany. Your argument in short is ridiculous. You’ve shifted from what you were originally responding too (which I’ve already quoted…and basically is the reason everyone but you thinks you said what you said) to ‘Hitler could never have conquered Europe without the support of the Industrialists.’ This is true, but doesn’t really say anything. Its like saying the Communist party in Russia couldn’t have done anything without the industrial might of Russia behind them. Well duh. However, by the time that power WAS behind them it was a foregone conclusion. It was get behind the bus…or get run over by it. Hitlers BASE, what all his power stemmed FROM, was that violent group of ex-vets, jobless men, bitter from the defeat of Germany in WWI and looking for someone to take it out on. Industrialists (and everyone else in Germany) came on board because they were by and large FORCED to come on board. Same with the military. Because by the time Hitler moved from chancellor to absolute dictator that small (violent) core of dedicated had swelled to encompass a large percentage of the German population. Either get on the bus or its going to roll over you. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-are-western-democracies-chrysocracies-in-disguise/410345/48 "2007-07-06T16:05:27Z")
But it’s wrong to imagine that the Nazis suddenly achieved power when they finally got the “backing” of the industrialists. It’s more correct to say that the Nazi party seized absolute power in Germany, and any industrialists who didn’t “back” them would find themselves in a camp. By that point EVERYOPNE in Germany backed the Nazis because to do otherwise was to be ruined. The industrialists cooperated because they had no choice, no more than the average non-Nazi wehrmacht soldier had a choice. They could either go along with the Nazi agenda or get crushed. And I also disagree with your idea that by getting the support of the industrialists Hitler was able to export his dictatorship, while other dictatorships without support of the industrialists simply struggled to maintain internal power. Thing is, Nazi Germany was different that almost every other dictatorship in that Germany before the Nazi takeover was one of the most scientifically, politically, culturally, and industrially advanced countries in the world. Most tin-pot dictators can’t hope to invade France because they are dictators of third world backwater countries. They HAVE no industry, there are no industrialists to get support FROM. Italy and Spain were fascist as well, but they were second-rate economic powers. Germany was a first rank country. And the decision to start invading every neighboring country was entirely Hitler’s. Given another, more rational, more cautious dictator and WWII might never have happened. Hitler’s military adventures were opposed by the General Staff, it took a victorious string of victories by Hitler’s brinksmanship before the Germans were convinced they couldn’t lose. The Rhineland, the Sudatenland, the Anchluss, the Danzig Corridor, Hitler achieved a string of territorial conquests without firing a shot, which gave him the prestige to order the invasion of Poland, and the quick victory there gave him the power to order the invasion of France, Norway, etc. And the quick victories there let him invade Russia, which almost succeeded. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-are-western-democracies-chrysocracies-in-disguise/410345/49 "2007-07-06T16:18:34Z")
Thank you for the little German history lesson. I bow to the superior knowledge of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2007, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-are-western-democracies-chrysocracies-in-disguise/410345/50 "2007-07-07T06:19:51Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] In any democratic society to get elected you usually need to have a good network of friends in politics. Being able to establish such a network more or less requires some personal success as a prerequisite. In neither of the systems you listed can someone reach the top post in government as just a common man off the street, they have to have connections, and the very act of forming powerful connections and making friends in politics tends to by its nature make one successful by at least some metrics. Calling it a chrysocracy is a bit off-base though. You don’t have to be wealthy, you juts have to be influential. The two seem to go hand in hand but not necessarily so, Clinton was well-off but he was not what most people would qualify as “rich” prior to being elected President. [/QUOTE] But this is almost exactly how we would imagine the first aristocracies arose at the dawn of history. The first Pharaoh was probably simply the person who had the most influential friends; using these contacts he was able to unite Upper and Lower Egypt, and the rest is history. They may not have had the concept of “money” in those days, but wealth and influence was well understood. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-are-western-democracies-chrysocracies-in-disguise/410345.md?page=2)