# To what extent, if at all, can economic forces be tamed to the collective human will? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714 "2011-07-12T04:44:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714/41 "2011-07-21T00:44:23Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I don’t think the Soviet Union is a good example for you. Forget the fact that changing the economy involved killing a lot of people in the way, the industrialization just got them to the point they should have been anyway if the Czarist government hadn’t screwed up so badly. I find that very hard to believe. Best-case scenario, a Tsarist or constitutional-republican Russia in 1939 might have been like Australia or Canada in 1939 – a nice place to live, **much** nicer than the USSR, but without the industrial resources to be any kind of military superpower. Hitler could’ve walked right over them without ever stopping to shake the gunk off his boots. (Assuming Hitler could come to power, in a world with no Bolshevik Revolution.) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714/42 "2011-07-21T01:46:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > We had [zeal for democracy in early American history](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonian_democracy) and survived it. The only people in America who ever had a Zeal for Democracy (as in politics) were madmen who brought the country to Civil War. Americans zealously loved their country, not their politics, and thank God for it. The French zealously loved their politics, and political systems, and it brought them to the Terror. Democracy requires dispassion, humor, and sense. it can thrive best without zeal. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714/43 "2011-07-21T03:13:10Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The only people in America who ever had a Zeal for Democracy (as in politics) were madmen who brought the country to Civil War. :dubious: I was talking about Andrew Jackson. **And** Thomas Jefferson. And their respective supporters/followers. Demo-zealots all. Don’t go blaming the Civil War on **them!** The Civil War was started by Southern aristos who were reluctant to let the common white man even **vote!** ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714/44 "2011-07-21T04:47:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not familiar with those except for the health system, but, based on things I’ve been reading on this board and others over the years, I think you are in the minority of Canadians in your opinions (at least, WRT health care). Not quite as marginal as **Sam Stone,** but in the minority. Which does not go far to explain why there is absolutely no significant call whatsoever in Canada for those things to be privatized again. What evidence have you that the government can run an airline better than private interests? Or sell gasoline? > [@](#): > > As for nationalized oil industries, for **some** reason all the OPEC countries seem to favor them. Because most of them are dictatorships, and it makes it easier to steal the money. The one democracy, Ecuador, has seen its state-run oil company screw up massively. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714/45 "2011-07-21T04:54:08Z")
There’s no such thing as collective human will. Decisions are carried out by small groups of people or sometimes even a single person. The only economic laws to be discovered will rely on human nature. Anything else is arbitrary. Let’s say the studies that show creative workers do worse if you pay them more money is true. That means if a society’s leaders want more quality art then paying artists more money won’t work. Instead they’ll have to find others ways to encourage it, to foster more artistry in the society or attract them from abroad or whatever. Is that the sort of thing you mean? I assume you don’t mean private power directing the government’s money hose to their pet causes or benefiting from their monopoly on legal violence as ‘economic forces being tamed to the collective will.’ Because that already happens just fine. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714/46 "2011-07-21T05:17:53Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > There’s no such thing as collective human will. Decisions are carried out by small groups of people or sometimes even a single person. A decision by a small group of people is an instance of collective human will. And decisions **are** made by much larger groups. I hope nobody here is gonna start with some Randian “no such thing as a collective brain” bullshit. A good **marriage** is a collective brain. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714/47 "2011-07-21T05:45:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > A decision by a small group of people is an instance of collective human will. And decisions **are** made by much larger groups. I hope nobody here is gonna start with some Randian “no such thing as a collective brain” bullshit. A good **marriage** is a collective brain. So does this mean you’re fully responsible for the death of a million Iraqis, or just 1/300 millionth responsible? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714/48 "2011-07-21T16:36:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I find that very hard to believe. Best-case scenario, a Tsarist or constitutional-republican Russia in 1939 might have been like Australia or Canada in 1939 – a nice place to live, **much** nicer than the USSR, but without the industrial resources to be any kind of military superpower. Hitler could’ve walked right over them without ever stopping to shake the gunk off his boots. (Assuming Hitler could come to power, in a world with no Bolshevik Revolution.) Compare the population of Russia in 1939 with the population of Canada. I agree that a Tsarist Russia would have been worse, unless whoever took over from Nicholas II was economically progressive, which I doubt would have happened. But a reasonably capitalist society would have been much better. Look how badly Stalin screwed up agriculture, for instance. There might have been significant foreign investment also, since it was a big market. Under Communism, it was isolated. And remember, a democratically elected leader might have listened to his generals warning about Hitler’s invasion - or may never have signed a nonaggression pact in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714/49 "2011-07-21T16:46:13Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Compare the population of Russia in 1939 with the population of Canada. I agree that a Tsarist Russia would have been worse, unless whoever took over from Nicholas II was economically progressive, which I doubt would have happened. But a reasonably capitalist society would have been much better. Look how badly Stalin screwed up agriculture, for instance. There might have been significant foreign investment also, since it was a big market. Under Communism, it was isolated. > And remember, a democratically elected leader might have listened to his generals warning about Hitler’s invasion - or may never have signed a nonaggression pact in the first place. All true, I’m sure. But under no non-Bolshevik scenario does Russia so heavily **industrialize** by 1939. By 2011 is a different matter. Stalinism is something you use when you want to industrialize your country **fast** and damn the cost. [_Dirigisme_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirigisme) works too, conditions permitting – it worked for Meiji Japan (which, as Paul Johnson pointed out in _Modern Times,_ already had a substantial artisan class and a strong and ancient tradition of workshop discipline – which Russia lacked); but it’s still a form of state management of the economy. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714/50 "2011-07-21T23:41:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: I was talking about Andrew Jackson. **And** Thomas Jefferson. And their respective supporters/followers. Demo-zealots all. Don’t go blaming the Civil War on **them!** The Civil War was started by Southern aristos who were reluctant to let the common white man even **vote!** Rather my point. Jefferson and Jackson loved this nation, but did not obsess over it. There is a difference. They had a vision but did not destroy the thing the loved in a mad dream to make it true. The south because mad because it became obsessed with its vision of democracy - a vision which indeed united men from all walks of life, high and low, far more than tidewater planters, and there are not few in the north I would condemn as well. > [@](#): > > But under no non-Bolshevik scenario does Russia so heavily industrialize by 1939. Really? I can easily see a scenario where the post-Tsarist Russia of 1920 industrializes as fast, and much more deeply, than the Russia of Lenin and Stalin. > [@](#): > > A decision by a small group of people is an instance of collective human will. And decisions are made by much larger groups. I hope nobody here is gonna start with some Randian “no such thing as a collective brain” bullshit. A good marriage is a collective brain. Good lord, you’ve gone into random ranting. Decisions are never collective. Marriage is in way way a collective brain, but a man and women coming to compromise. As are all decisions. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714/51 "2011-07-22T04:06:31Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Rather my point. Jefferson and Jackson loved this nation, but did not obsess over it. There is a difference. They had a vision but did not destroy the thing the loved in a mad dream to make it true. The south because mad because it became obsessed with its vision of democracy - a vision which indeed united men from all walks of life, high and low, far more than tidewater planters, and there are not few in the north I would condemn as well. :dubious: No “vision of democracy” played any part in that. “I am an aristocrat! I love liberty, I hate equality.” – John Randolph of Roanoke ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714/52 "2011-07-26T13:39:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nevertheless, let us take it as a thought experiment that the political problems are overcome and Nationland – a big, modern, prosperous, pluralistic, fully industrialized country – establishes the world’s first democratic-socialist system, and in a purely political sense it all works like a charm and (almost) everybody is behind it with zeal. People still vote with their Currencies in the marketplace, but they also vote with their votes at the other end of the marketplace, as it were, and both forces act together to shape the economy. > > What economic problems – that is, what unanticipated and insuperable iron laws of economics – would such a system run up against, in striving to outperform capitalism? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No one can think of any? Still no one? ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714/53 "2011-07-28T00:04:41Z")
Make accounting mandatory in the schools and teach kids that planned obsolescence is going on in cars and see how is affects how the collective human will reacts to economic forces. [http://www.bsu.edu/news/article/0,1370,-1019-11714,00.html](http://www.bsu.edu/news/article/0,1370,-1019-11714,00.html) psik ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714/54 "2011-07-29T13:21:05Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > Make accounting mandatory in the schools and teach kids that planned obsolescence is going on in cars and see how is affects how the collective human will reacts to economic forces. > > [http://www.bsu.edu/news/article/0,1370,-1019-11714,00.html](http://www.bsu.edu/news/article/0,1370,-1019-11714,00.html) > > psik 😕 I’m all **for** that, broader education is always an unmixed blessing, but I don’t see what economic problems it would solve. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-if-at-all-can-economic-forces-be-tamed-to-the-collective-human-will/588714.md?page=2)