# To what extent should homeschoolers be regulated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677 "2010-02-04T15:47:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/41 "2010-02-04T19:28:14Z")
> [@villa](#): > > A parent’s rights to Freedom of Religion would become implicated if the parent was forced to teach their child something they found religiously abhorrent. That doesn’t happen, as far as I can see. Even if regulation of home schooling set a curriculum that could not be deviated from, I still don’t see a violation. The parent would not have to teach evolution, for example, even if it was on the curriculum, because they could either allow someone else to teach that part of the course, or they could enrol their child in public school. > > The parent’s right to Freedom of Religion does not, however, I believe, extend to control over his or her child. Someone else teaching a child evolution does not impact the parent’s freedom of religion, it may impact the child’s. And we accept generally that children’s rights are interpreted differently and are more circumspect in many ways. > > I therefore don’t see, within the realms of reasonable possibilities, regulation of home schooling could impact the parents’ religious freedoms. Then again, I wrote my seminar paper on the concept that the First Amendment probably doesn’t prevent the government from requiring all children to attend secular public school, so it isn’t surprising I come to that conclusion. Would your opinion be different if the school district didn’t want to teach evolution, but the parents did? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/42 "2010-02-04T19:36:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Did your seminar paper acknowledge your belief that existing Supreme Court precedent was meaningless, in view of the clowns sitting thereon? The clowns comment was obviously a joke - I would have thought that was apparent. I’m not limiting myself to what the Supreme Court would rule based on current precedent. That’s pretty limiting. The Court has a blind spot in certain areas, and it leads to what I view as inconsistent precedents. Your opinion might differ, or it might not. Court decisions on free speech and on regulation of sexual material seem to sit badly together; so, IMHO, do decisions on the interaction between teh Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause. I think you can make a legitimate legal argument (though probably one that, given the current make up of the Court, would fail) that _Yoder_ (and other similar decisions) is no longer controlling in light of _Smith_. Rather than picking out the throwaway comment at the end, combined with a joke from a previous post, why not answer why you think a parent’s freedom of religion is impacted by what their child learns? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/43 "2010-02-04T19:38:18Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Would your opinion be different if the school district didn’t want to teach evolution, but the parents did? No - I don’t think the parent’s freedom of religion would be impacted there at all. I think a school district not teaching evolution for religious reasons would have major Establishment Clause problems, but it isn’t caused by the religious freedom of the parents. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/44 "2010-02-04T19:41:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yes, but it is hard to believe that any parent would have what it takes to effectively teach in _all_ subjects necessary to graduate. It is not enough to just keep ahead of the student a couple of months in the workbook-real teachers have to have an advanced understanding of the subject as a whole. Teachers in public schools specialize(and go through extensive training) in specific areas of knowledge for this reason. Perhaps why people have developed entire curriculum for the parents to use at home? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/45 "2010-02-04T19:48:12Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Rather than picking out the throwaway comment at the end, combined with a joke from a previous post, why not answer why you think a parent’s freedom of religion is impacted by what their child learns? Because it’s a First Amendment right to raise your child in your religion. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/46 "2010-02-04T19:49:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It is not enough to just keep ahead of the student a couple of months in the workbook-real teachers have to have an advanced understanding of the subject as a whole. Teachers in public schools specialize(and go through extensive training) in specific areas of knowledge for this reason. Ha! Ha! Good one. Oh, were you serious? Um… my experiences do not bear this statement out. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/47 "2010-02-04T20:00:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because it’s a First Amendment right to raise your child in your religion. And nothing stops you from doing that. It would be an issue if the child was away 24 hours a day, or even 16 hours a day. As long as the government isn’t (a) saying that the parents religion is wrong and (b) preventing the parent from attempting to educate his or her child in his or her own religion. Even (a) isn’t that clear cut. After all, I am sure you are not suggesting that DARE programs violate the freedom of religion rights of Rastafarians? You have a First Amendment right to raise your child in your religion. You don’t have a first amendment right to block all other sources of information to your child, even if those sources of information suggest things in your religion are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/48 "2010-02-04T20:03:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ha! Ha! Good one. > > Oh, were you serious? > > Um… my experiences do not bear this statement out. Would that be your experiences as a teacher? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/49 "2010-02-04T20:07:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would that be your experiences as a teacher? No. Those have been, oddly enough, in complete agreement with your thesis. But my experiences as a student and as the parent of a student have varied dramatically from your theory. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/50 "2010-02-04T20:07:56Z")
> [@villa](#): > > But the key thing to remember is that it is the rights of the child that are most important here. True. Another important thing to remember is that the parents are much better motivated to protect those rights. > [@](#): > > I am talking about the locus of the rights involved, and those of the child are, IMHO, more important than those of the parent. Agreed. And the rights of the parent are more important than those of the state. > [@](#): > > While the parent acts as guardian of those rights much of the time, the state also has a role to play to protect the child’s rights against intrusion from the parent. That requires a degree of regulation. There I am afraid you are mistaken - no regulation is necessary until after the state makes a clear and objective case that the rights of the child are being harmed. The burden of proof, IOW, remains with the state to show that home-schooled students are not learning as much as public schooled students. There seems to be a formidable lack of such proof - all the available data seem to show that home-schoolers do significantly better than the average. We can certainly argue as to _why_ that happens - the fact that it _does_ happen is pretty well indisputable. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/51 "2010-02-04T20:12:44Z")
> [@villa](#): > > After all, I am sure you are not suggesting that DARE programs violate the freedom of religion rights of Rastafarians? No, because Employment Division v. Smith. > [@](#): > > You have a First Amendment right to raise your child in your religion. You don’t have a first amendment right to block all other sources of information to your child, even if those sources of information suggest things in your religion are wrong. “Block all other sources.” No. “Block a source that purports to be a solid teaching authority, like school?” Yes, I do. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/52 "2010-02-04T20:20:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Those have been, oddly enough, in complete agreement with your thesis. > > But my experiences as a student and as the parent of a student have varied dramatically from your theory. And would it have been better if the teachers you are referring to _had_ gone through advanced specialized training in order to obtain a true understanding? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/53 "2010-02-04T20:26:53Z")
The right to an education (under the right of equal protection) belongs to the child. It is the obligation of the parents to prove to the state that the child’s rights are being met. There is no right whatsoever for parents to withhold a proper education from their children. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/54 "2010-02-04T20:27:17Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I _really_ don’t think that implication-by-definition is warranted. > > A good chunk of them (but not a plurality by any stretch) are probably religious, political, or other type zealots who have very screwed up notions of modern, public school based education. A homeschooling parent, on the other hand, doesn’t have the option of just sending the kid off to school and not giving a rat’s ass about what happens while the kid is there. A parent sending their kid to public (or private, for that matter) school does have that option. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/55 "2010-02-04T20:28:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > True. Another important thing to remember is that the parents are much better motivated to protect those rights. In the majority of cases yes. However, with certain rights, such as freedom of religion, for example, the parents motivation may run counter to that. > [@Shodan](#): > > Agreed. And the rights of the parent are more important than those of the state. Of course. That is definitional. States don’t have rights, they have powers. > [@Shodan](#): > > There I am afraid you are mistaken - no regulation is necessary until after the state makes a clear and objective case that the rights of the child are being harmed. > > The burden of proof, IOW, remains with the state to show that home-schooled students are not learning as much as public schooled students. There seems to be a formidable lack of such proof - all the available data seem to show that home-schoolers do significantly better than the average. We can certainly argue as to _why_ that happens - the fact that it _does_ happen is pretty well indisputable. > > Regards, > Shodan Not sure I follow you here. Would you apply the same rules to private schools as to home schools? Is it the number of students involved or the parent child relationship? Certain regulations exist. That doesn’t give the state the right to kick your door down and search the place, but the regulations are in place for the good of the child before hand. We don’t, for example, require evidence of contamination at a meat packing plant before we allow an inspection of that plant. Clearly if you are looking to bring punishment into the equation, then I agree on burden of proof. But I don’t see the problem with treating a school like other schools. All of which have a regulatory burden. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/56 "2010-02-04T20:28:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And would it have been better if the teachers you are referring to _had_ gone through advanced specialized training in order to obtain a true understanding? I don’t know what training those teachers had. But I know that they most certainly lacked “…an advanced understanding of the subject as a whole.” It’s not clear to me whether the reason for the lack of this in-depth understanding was a lack of training or a lack of cognitive ability. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/57 "2010-02-04T20:29:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And would it have been better if the teachers you are referring to _had_ gone through advanced specialized training in order to obtain a true understanding? Nope. I posit that the only thing you need to have in order to teach is the want to do so. Public teachers don’t have nearly the want that parents do. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/58 "2010-02-04T20:30:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The right to an education (under the right of equal protection) belongs to the child. It is the obligation of the parents to prove to the state that the child’s rights are being met. There is no right whatsoever for parents to withhold a proper education from their children. Are you talking about some kind of legal rights, or is this one of those “Rights that Diogenes made up in his head and fiercely asserts as real?” I just want to get it straight now, before we waste a lot of time. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/59 "2010-02-04T20:32:42Z")
14th Amendment. If the state is going to guarantee an education for some kids, it has to gurantee it for all of them. This is not an entitlement the parents have a right to block. It belongs to the kids, not to them. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/60 "2010-02-04T20:34:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, because Employment Division v. Smith. Good. We agree there. Now, if it is an equally applicable law, not targeted at religion, that all children learn the fundamentals of evolution, where do we have a problem given _Smith_? > [@Bricker](#): > > “Block all other sources.” No. > > “Block a source that purports to be a solid teaching authority, like school?” Yes, I do. And that is where I think _Smith_ changed things. If the law applies to all, and is not specifically targeted at religion, and does not prevent a person educating their child after school time, then just as the state can mandate nobody may smoke marijuana, even for religious purposes, it may mandate all children must be taught this curriculum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677.md?page=4)