# To what extent should homeschoolers be regulated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677 "2010-02-04T15:47:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/81 "2010-02-04T21:16:18Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Which brings me back to my original point. If educating your child is the prominent thing, aren’t you going to do everything you can to ensure that it is done better than it was for you? > If the want is there, you as a parent, can certainly do a better job teaching your children than the State could. “ability to teach” is not something you get out of a book, mmmkay? some people are better at it an others. so, no, to the extent that “the state” can hire and group together the people with the best teaching skills and factual knowledge to teach children, you’re certainly not going to do a better job teaching your kid just because you really, really \*\*want \*\*to. (now, whether they do, and whether this is true in all cases for all examples is not the issue here) and no, it does not follow that the only people who select homeschooling are only and most importantly concerned with educating their child - which is the entire point of my initial response to you. ---
**Author:** ![Kelby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a587f6/32.png) [@Kelby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelby)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/82 "2010-02-04T21:18:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, and public school is no guarantee of that. Which is why my child attends private school. Are you saying that private school teachers are better qualified than their public school counterparts? To say the public schools’ record of mediocre achievement results is due mainly to underqualified teachers I believe to be false. Private and homeschool educated children are, on the whole, different in terms of their achievement orientation I think, and that is in no small part due to their parents attititudes towards the importance of education. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/83 "2010-02-04T21:18:56Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Which brings me back to my original point. If educating your child is the prominent thing, aren’t you going to do everything you can to ensure that it is done better than it was for you? > If the want is there, you as a parent, can certainly do a better job teaching your children than the State could. The “State” didn’t teach me or my child-dedicated teachers who went through years of training did. Years of training in specific subjects _and_ years of training _how_ to effectively teach. It takes a lot of time, effort and money to get a teaching certificate, and the training doesn’t stop once they get it, unless you’re another one of those that believe that teachers get the summer off along with their students. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/84 "2010-02-04T21:23:52Z")
OK! So my question is, what, if any regulations do you think homeschools should have? 1. No regulations 2. Yearly academic testing only 3. Submission and approval of curriculum 4. Mandatory parental training 5. More regulation ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/85 "2010-02-04T21:26:02Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > “ability to teach” is not something you get out of a book, mmmkay? some people are better at it an others. so, no, to the extent that “the state” can hire and group together the people with the best teaching skills and factual knowledge to teach children, you’re certainly not going to do a better job teaching your kid just because you really, really \*\*want \*\*to. (now, whether they do, and whether this is true in all cases for all examples is not the issue here) > > and no, it does not follow that the only people who select homeschooling are only and most importantly concerned with educating their child - which is the entire point of my initial response to you. How do you magically get this “ability to teach”? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/86 "2010-02-04T21:27:29Z")
> [@Kelby](#): > > Are you saying that private school teachers are better qualified than their public school counterparts? > > To say the public schools’ record of mediocre achievement results is due mainly to underqualified teachers I believe to be false. > > Private and homeschool educated children are, on the whole, different in terms of their achievement orientation I think, and that is in no small part due to their parents attititudes towards the importance of education. I agree! Private and home school students tend to do better because they lack the State’s undue influence. Parental involvement is a plus either way you go. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/87 "2010-02-04T21:27:50Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > How do you magically get this “ability to teach”? as mentioned above, a large part of this is based in experience. and there’s also a degree of innate ability at it, too. ---
**Author:** ![Kelby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a587f6/32.png) [@Kelby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelby)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/88 "2010-02-04T21:34:05Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > I agree! > Private and home school students tend to do better because they lack the State’s undue influence. Parental involvement is a plus either way you go. \*All \*children tend to do better when their parents emphasize the importance of education…public school, private, one-room schoolhouse, Swiss Family Robinson. I’m not sure what you mean by “the States undue influence”. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/89 "2010-02-04T21:35:56Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > A good chunk of them (but not a plurality by any stretch) are probably religious, political, or other type zealots who have very screwed up notions of modern, public school based education. my Very limited experience with home schooled kids puts most of them in this category. one parent who was a former public school teacher now a stay at home mom. the rest of the kids whos parents I had some interaction with were all in one of your categories. Religion being the biggest group. > [@Shodan](#): > > The burden of proof, IOW, remains with the state to show that home-schooled students are not learning as much as public schooled students. There seems to be a formidable lack of such proof - all the available data seem to show that home-schoolers do significantly better than the average. We can certainly argue as to _why_ that happens - the fact that it _does_ happen is pretty well indisputable. but its not even close to indisputable, its been disputed pretty clearly right in this thread, if all your data that says these kids do better at everything under the sun comes from questionable sources its not good data. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > If anyone objects to those studies because of their sampling method or anything else, they’re free to offer better studies, but until then I’ll stick with the best sources we have. the best sources we have a garbage, why would you stick to them? it makes no sense at all. I have a “Trainer” at my work whos job it is to teach other people how to do their job, she talks about how she “feels” that this or that is the right way to do things when she is talking about stuff that is scientifically TESTABLE. but since shes the best source available we should just use what she teaches? are you high? the one thing I do know about these kids is that they have a huge gap when it comes to social skills, these kids stand out like a turd in a punch bowl in any social setting. (note that my sample size is very very small, and there is the possibility that some home schooled kids make it by without me knowing but its very unlikely for a few reasons. I am not really commenting on how much better or worse they do in school stuff, but socially they are way behind and the parents are almost always the ones with an obvious screw loose in some way or another) ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/90 "2010-02-04T21:46:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > We don’t. As long as the school is ALSO permitted to teach the Intelligent Design nonsense, or even the "God spake, and breathed life into clay,’ as literal fact. Then you fall foul of the Establishment Clause. Which would mean they are not also permitted to teach that. Similarly, I would say they are not also permitted to teach “Man evolved from apes, therefore there is no God.” > [@Bricker](#): > > And where does "And Tango Makes Three,’ fit? Here we have a teaching that directly contradicts (presumably) some religious truth, AND is not objectively verifiable like evolution is. Teaching will always potentially contradict a religious truth. Unless you want to say that the government defines what religious truths deserve protection and which ones don’t which is, I am sure you would agree, problematic under the Establishment Clause, then there is no reason to prefer someone’s “gays are immoral and children should not be exposed to it” to someone elses “two plus two is five” or “pi is three.” It’s why I don’t think there would be a constitutional problem with doing away with the ability of parents to remove kids from particular classes such as sex ed. Now it would be impossible to pass, and a PR disaster, but I would say constitutional. I’ll say again, that I don’t believe that a parent’s right to freedom of religion, or their right to raise their children in their own religion is impacted by the children being in a classroom where opposite viewpoints are raised. Provided the parent is permitted to carry on raising the child, and time exists for non-school religious education, I feel those freedoms are protected. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/91 "2010-02-04T21:49:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Even if we had such data, you would reject it. What do you mean, “reject” it? If we did have statistically reliable data showing that homeschoolers in general outperform other groups of students, why would I or anybody else consider that a problem? > [@Bricker](#): > > You would argue that the homeschool students are themselves self-selected – not the homeschool students reported on, but the entire group of students that are homeschooled are tilted towards higher performance than the average schooled child. 😕 So why would that be a problem? Why would I object to that? I think you’re mixing up two separate concepts here: 1) self-selection in a particular population as a contributing cause of performance differentials, and 2) self-selection in a supposedly random study sample producing sample bias. The latter type of self-selection is problematic simply because _it makes the statistical results unreliable_, and therefore we can’t draw valid comparative conclusions from them. Self-selection of the first type, on the other hand, is simply an intrinsic part of the phenomenon that the statistical research is trying to study, and there’s nothing problematic about it. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/92 "2010-02-04T21:51:36Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > OK! > > So my question is, what, if any regulations do you think homeschools should have? > > 1. No regulations > > 2. Yearly academic testing only > > 3. Submission and approval of curriculum > > 4. Mandatory parental training > > 5. More regulation Same testing & curriculum requirements as private schools, which should involve a mandatory core curriculum. I’d like to see no mandatory testing, but if other schools have it, so should homeschools. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/93 "2010-02-04T22:05:06Z")
> [@Kelby](#): > > \*All \*children tend to do better when their parents emphasize the importance of education…public school, private, one-room schoolhouse, Swiss Family Robinson. > > I’m not sure what you mean by “the States undue influence”. Starting off I’d say alot of the students left behind that weren’t supposed to get left behind are directly due to the standardized testing that the States _require_ As I said, parental influence is always going to be a net positive. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/94 "2010-02-04T22:31:52Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But as I noted in post #24 (where I linked to a detailed analysis of several studies of homeschoolers’ performance), _the available data are extremely unreliable because the participants in studies of homeschooling are self-selected_. Actually, **Itr Champion** ’s link appears to say this - > [@](#): > > 1. In a study released by the National Center for Home Education on November 10, 1994. According to these standardized test results provided by the Riverside Publishing Company of 16,311 homeschoolers from all 50 states K-12, the nationwide average for homeschool students is at the 77th percentile of the basic battery of the Iowa Test of Basic Skills. In reading, the homeschoolers’ nationwide grand mean is the 79th percentile. This means, of course, that the homeschool students perform better in reading than 79 percent of the same population on whom the test is normed. In the area of language arts and math, the typical homeschooler scored in the 73rd percentile. > > These 16,311 homeschool students’ scores were not self-selected by parents or anyone else. This criticism of the data has been made in the past. > [@](#): > > [This particular study is the most comprehensive ever undertaken. It attempts to build upon and improve on the previous research. One criticism of the Rudner study was that it only drew students from one large testing service. Although there was no reason to believe that homeschoolers participating with that service were automatically non-representative of the broader homeschool community, HSLDA decided to answer this criticism by using 15 independent testing services for this new study. There can be no doubt that homeschoolers from all walks of life and backgrounds participated in the Progress Report.](http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/200908100.asp) The results of the study are as follows: National Average Percentile Scores Subtest Homeschool Public School Reading 89 50 Language 84 50 Math 84 50 Science 86 50 Social Studies 84 50 Corea 88 50 Compositeb 86 50 a. Core is a combination of Reading, Language, and Math. b. Composite is a combination of all subtests that the student took on the test. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/95 "2010-02-04T22:40:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The results of the study are as follows: > > National Average Percentile Scores > Subtest Homeschool Public School > Compositeb 86 50 Look, we already pay enough money to public schools to get those scores. Regulate the homeschoolers until their scores are lower. Equality for all. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/96 "2010-02-04T22:40:26Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > All of the studies done in the United States suggest that home-schooled children fare better in numerous categories. If anyone objects to those studies because of their sampling method or anything else, they’re free to offer better studies, but until then I’ll stick with the best sources we have. As **Critical1** noted, this position is absurd. No source is “best” if it’s statistically unreliable. Unreliable data is not better than no data. I don’t mind at all if you personally believe as your own opinion that homeschooling is more effective than other kinds of schooling, or if you feel that homeschoolers have the right not to be regulated irrespective of their effectiveness. That’s an issue of personal opinion, which doesn’t require evidentiary support. But when you claim that the studies you cited provide **evidence** that homeschooling is more effective than other forms of schooling, even after it’s been explained to you how the studies are statistically flawed, that’s intellectually dishonest. You (and **Bricker** as well) are not doing the homeschooling movement any favors by giving the impression that its adherents don’t understand basic statistical concepts and/or don’t argue honestly about statistical evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/97 "2010-02-04T22:47:55Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > OK! > > So my question is, what, if any regulations do you think homeschools should have? > > 1. No regulations > > 2. Yearly academic testing only > > 3. Submission and approval of curriculum > > 4. Mandatory parental training > > 5. More regulation **2. Yearly academic testing only** ONLY if all public and private school kids take the exact same test. I would not accept any actions against the parent UNLESS equivalent actions are taken against the public/private school either. Example: If you decide that my kid can no longer be homeschooled by me because he did poorly on the test, then the Principal and Teacher of the local school lose their job as well if a percentage of the kids do poorly. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/98 "2010-02-04T22:51:23Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The links above show that millions of children in America are not getting a proper education from their public schools. Would you agree that according to your own reasoning, these children’s rights are being violated? No. The right is to be allowed equal access to the education, not to equal outcome. Obviously, a lot more money and effort needs to be pumped into public schools, but the answer sure as hell is not for parents to cockblock what little bit of decent education they actually can get. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/99 "2010-02-04T22:51:27Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > but since shes the best source available we should just use what she teaches? > are you high? Leave the personal barbs out of this, please. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/100 "2010-02-04T22:52:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But a parent has the right to control the type and nature of the education. A parent can choose to send their child to private school, or to home school. Not if “home school” is code for _denying_ an education. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677.md?page=6)