# To what extent should homeschoolers be regulated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677 "2010-02-04T15:47:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/121 "2010-02-05T00:01:48Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Of course, as soon as I said that I would have no problem with some sort of evaluation system that was applied across the board - the pile-on started. Your arguement seems to be this: “There is no evidence of problems of homeschooling, but we want to regulate the shit out of it. There IS evidence of problems in public schooling, now shut up and send your kids there.” There is no evidence of a problem because there is no evidence at all. And that is because there is no testing. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/122 "2010-02-05T00:07:28Z")
I would propose that all children, in public, private, charter or home schools take the same standardized test. It should be clearly spelled out what happens to teachers whose kids are consistently low scoring. If it is a homeschooling parent whose child is performing poorly, then I would advice a higher level of regulation. That parents would have to submit monthly curriculum and get advice from an eduction professional. If a classroom teacher has children who are performing poorly, they would also have to be under increased supervision and be under the wing of a teacher trainer with more experience and a more solid record. Fair? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/123 "2010-02-05T00:08:08Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > True, but it could be argued that providing adequate food for a child is a lot easier than providing an adequate education, so your home kitchen should be subject to less regulation than your home schoolroom. > > Furthermore, it’s unlikely that you would seriously compromise the quality of your child’s food for the sake of, say, your own religious beliefs. And if you did, CPS would probably be more likely to hear about it: malnutrition is easier to spot in a child than poor education. also, the analogy sucks because _there is feedback_ if you don’t properly prepare food. namely, you or your kid gets sick and you improve yourself the next time around. not so much with schooling - it’s not the kind of thing that you can so easily identify. also, fwiw, if you show up to the emergency room 3 times a week for a month with food poisoning, there’s a good chance children’s services is going to come around and pay you a visit. acting like there’s no regulation of your household, as far as your children’s welfare goes, is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/124 "2010-02-05T00:12:09Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > I would propose that all children, in public, private, charter or home schools take the same standardized test. It should be clearly spelled out what happens to teachers whose kids are consistently low scoring. > > If it is a homeschooling parent whose child is performing poorly, then I would advice a higher level of regulation. That parents would have to submit monthly curriculum and get advice from an eduction professional. > > If a classroom teacher has children who are performing poorly, they would also have to be under increased supervision and be under the wing of a teacher trainer with more experience and a more solid record. > > Fair? I would vote for that - sounds fair to me. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/125 "2010-02-05T00:12:29Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > And tell me - just what is the result of that complaint? > > jack shit (to borrow from a previous poster). this is like arguing that we should do away with driver’s licenses because you can’t keep people off the road who _really_ want to drive without a license. namely, it’s like a bunk argument. you’re equating a lack of resolve to enforce oversight standards to an actual lack of oversight. wrong-o. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/126 "2010-02-05T00:22:23Z")
I found this in a quick Google search of homeschooling and SAT scores: [http://www.academicleadership.org/emprical\_research/State\_Regulation\_of\_Homeschooling\_and\_Homeschoolers\_SAT\_Scores.shtml](http://www.academicleadership.org/emprical_research/State_Regulation_of_Homeschooling_and_Homeschoolers_SAT_Scores.shtml) > [@](#): > > The authors of this study find no evidence from their analysis that supports the claim that states should exercise more regulation of homeschool families and students in order to assure better academic success in general or improved higher-education success in particular. On the contrary, the findings of this study are consistent with other research findings that homeschool students perform well academically – typically above national averages on standardized achievement tests and at least on par with others on college-admissions tests – and do so regardless of whether they live in a state that applies low, moderate, or high governmental regulation of homeschooling. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/127 "2010-02-05T01:20:06Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I’ll say again, that I don’t believe that a parent’s right to freedom of religion, or their right to raise their children in their own religion is impacted by the children being in a classroom where opposite viewpoints are raised. Provided the parent is permitted to carry on raising the child, and time exists for non-school religious education, I feel those freedoms are protected. Yes, but you’ve already acknowledged that your feelings are not precisely in line with federal law. So it’s not clear to me why you keep mentioning how you feel, unless it’s intended to persuade others that your feelings should trump established law. That a public school may require children to leanr opposing viewpoints is beyond cavil. That the government may REQUIRE that children get those opposing viewpoints is highly doubtful. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/128 "2010-02-05T01:28:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Your position is akin to saying schools should be allowed to teach LOTR as factual history. Uh _Oh_. You shouldn’t have said that. Better pray \*\*Skald \*\*doesn’t show up. In the meantime, if you spy any flying monkeys, don’t think, RUN. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/129 "2010-02-05T01:40:53Z")
> [@Algher's link](#): > > On the contrary, the findings of this study are consistent with other research findings that homeschool students perform well academically - typically above national averages on standardized achievement tests and at least on par with others on college-admissions tests Notice what happens to the alleged “homeschooling advantage” between the K-12 standardized tests, where the homeschooled students are well above national averages, and the college-admissions tests, where the homeschooled students drop to “at least on par with others” (details in the link). As I’ve been pointing out, in the K-12 standardized tests the studies are comparing the results of _mandatory universal testing of public-school students_ with the results of _testing a self-selected sample of homeschooled students_. Unsurprisingly, the homeschooled students are found to perform much better. In the college admissions tests, though, none of the testing is mandatory (in other words, **all** participants are self-selected), and the study looks at **all** test results for both homeschooled and non-homeschooled students. All of a sudden, the homeschooled students are **not** performing significantly better than their peers. (In fact, as noted in the link, one study found that on a particular college test called the mathematics ACT, homeschooled students’ scores were slightly **worse** than those of the non-homeschooled.) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/130 "2010-02-05T01:48:42Z")
People keep writing that there is no testing of homeschoolers. Isn’t homeschooling highly regulated in some states? True, in some places you don’t even have to notify the district, but I found [this](http://math-and-reading-help-for-kids.org/articles/State_regulations_surrounding_homeschooling.html): > [@](#): > > A New York homeschool must teach courses in substance abuse, patriotism and citizenship, traffic and fire safety, arithmetic, English, history, geography, science, health, visual arts, music, physical education, library skills, and other electives. Parents do not need teacher certification to homeschool but do need to maintain attendance records, file quarterly reports and annual assessment tests with the local superintendent. Homeschoolers must score above the 33rd percentile or the homeschool program may be placed on probation. Now I have no idea if that’s correct or not, but if it is, then the data are out there. Whether or not those data are accessible to us is another question. I think that the government should intervene in any case in which it has reason to believe that abuse or neglect is occurring. Barring that, they should butt out. I’m glad they did in my case. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/131 "2010-02-05T01:54:44Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > so, to continue with my line of thought, a law that today allows the State verify that home schoolers teach their kids algebra can tomorrow be used, by another government, to verify that they teach their kids the fascist ideology of the evil regime in power at the time. I don’t think that testing for algebra knowledge is evil - but I do think that passing such laws is a direct slippery slope to tyranny. It is the strategy of slowly boiling the frog with regards to our liberties here in America [Boiling frog - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog) Sorry, but the parent can teach the kid what they want, but also make certain that the kid can parrot the proper party line of bullshit in public. You can make the child understand the truth of needing to have a public face and a private face. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/132 "2010-02-05T02:28:17Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Now I have no idea if that’s correct or not, but if it is, then the data are out there. Whether or not those data are accessible to us is another question. Students may have to pass standardized assessment tests to comply with state regulations on homeschools, but AFAICT the data about standardized test results aren’t published except for public-school students. > [@](#): > > Homeschoolers can opt to take the FCAT [Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test], but no one at the state Department of Education keeps track of how they perform (nor does the state monitor private school achievement). > > The state won’t say how many homeschoolers take the test, let alone release their scores. A department spokeswoman said the confidentiality is not particular to homeschoolers; all raw student scores are confidential. She said the department does not release summary data because the numbers of students taking the test are too small. If homeschool advocates in a state with universal mandatory standardized testing for homeschoolers want hard evidence about how homeschooled students perform compared to others, I would think that lobbying to have the homeschoolers’ standardized test results annually summarized and released to the public, just as public school students’ test results are, would be the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/133 "2010-02-05T05:24:59Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Notice what happens to the alleged “homeschooling advantage” between the K-12 standardized tests, where the homeschooled students are well above national averages, and the college-admissions tests, where the homeschooled students drop to “at least on par with others” (details in the link). > > As I’ve been pointing out, in the K-12 standardized tests the studies are comparing the results of _mandatory universal testing of public-school students_ with the results of _testing a self-selected sample of homeschooled students_. Unsurprisingly, the homeschooled students are found to perform much better. > > In the college admissions tests, though, none of the testing is mandatory (in other words, **all** participants are self-selected), and the study looks at **all** test results for both homeschooled and non-homeschooled students. All of a sudden, the homeschooled students are **not** performing significantly better than their peers. (In fact, as noted in the link, one study found that on a particular college test called the mathematics ACT, homeschooled students’ scores were slightly **worse** than those of the non-homeschooled.) True, based on one of those studies it appears that homeschooled kids who self-select to take college entrance exams perform equivalently to public school kids who self select to take college entrance exams. Therefore - homeschooling is no worse than public schooling. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/134 "2010-02-05T05:34:58Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Therefore - homeschooling is no worse than public schooling. No, that doesn’t follow at all, it’s the worst kind of sloppy research methodology in point of fact. The conclusion would be that the self selected cohort is no worse than the self selected public schooled cohort _at taking college entrance exams._ A broader conclusion is not only unjustified, it is unjustifiable. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/135 "2010-02-05T05:48:06Z")
Oh, and: > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > If we want to ensure that kids get a good education, we should regulate public schools, not private schools and home schools. Consider [the facts.](http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp) > > Children who are home-schooled not only outperform those who are public schooled in academic areas, [they are also](http://www.hslda.org/research/ray2003/HomeschoolingGrowsUp.pdf) more likely to continue to every level of higher education, more likely to get a decent job, more likely to be involved in their communities, and so forth. :rolleyes: Reposting [a thoroughly debunked bit of junk science](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11534517&postcount=45) to push an agenda? In fact, posting the same text you did before, when it was shown to be bogus, and adding new text that uses\* the exact same junk-science, agenda-driven deception\*? How’d I guess? Just cut this shit out already. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/136 "2010-02-05T06:13:49Z")
And, damn, as long as I’m on the subject (sorry for the triple post, but this is just annoying): > [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, **Itr Champion** ’s link appears to say this Yes, but think about that for a moment. "These 16,311 homeschool students’ scores were not self-selected by parents or anyone else. " Are there only 16,311 homeschooling students in the nation? No, there are more. Does that, in fact, mean that they were self-selected? By definition, yes. \*Then why would someone claim that they were not? \* Because they were crafting a fiction to push an agenda. > [@Shodan](#): > > The results of the study are as follows Look at that study as well. “included 11,739 homeschooled students from all 50 states who took three well-known tests—California Achievement Test, Iowa Tests of Basic Skills, and Stanford Achievement Test for the 2007–08 academic year.” Again, this is the worst, sloppiest kind of junk-science, agenda driven nonsense. If you take a self-selected cohort and test it against the average of the _entire nation’s school systems_ of course you will find a difference, that’s why no respectable study would ever be designed in such a manner. And “there can be no doubt” that students were represented across a random cross section of backgrounds? How on Earth can there be no such doubt? In fact there were zero methodological safeguards to ensure that (or at least, none that were discussed in the link) and no reason, at all, to certify that was the result. And even if it was, self-selecting would nullify any possible methodological advantage that might occurred from a randomized sample. You can’t take randomized demographics and then only take those who self-select out, that nullifies the entire purpose of a random sample in the first place. The eggshell-thin rationalization that’s offered is that “The concern that the only families who chose to participate are the most successful homeschoolers can be alleviated by the fact that the overwhelming majority of parents did not know their children’s test results before agreeing to participate in the study.” This is, blatantly, bogus. If asked after the fact, parents would have known numerous facts including but not limited to how their children felt the did on the tests, how well they’d prepared, etc.. And that any of the parents already knew their children’s scores is such a red flag that I’m surprised the fraudsters even let it slip. (In fact, since we were talking about state-specific tests administered on a national level, it’s far and away most likely that the parents had to self-select to get their students to take the tests in the first place, nullifying even the flimsy rationalizations offered by the advocacy-group). The agenda-driven advocacy group knows this, and tries to rationalize it away. "Critics tend to focus on this narrow point and maintain that they will not be satisfied until every homeschooler is submitted to a test. This is not a reasonable request because not all homeschoolers take standardized achievement tests. In fact, while the majority of homeschool parents do indeed test their children simply to track their progress and also to provide them with the experience of test-taking, it is far from a comprehensive and universal practice among homeschoolers. The best researchers can do is provide a sample of homeschooling families and compare the results of their children to those of public school students, in order to give the most accurate picture of how homeschoolers in general are faring academically." In other words, asking for an actual scientific study with valid methodology is “unreasonable” and so the "best " we can do is provide a study that’s so powerfully _broken_ that its value as anything other than deceptive propaganda is nil. We can, potentially, analyze the effect of homeschooling. But rigged tests set up to give specific results are not the way to do it, and that this group pretends otherwise is no excuse. It’s a fraud. And one can not get the straight dope on a complicated issue by fraud. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/137 "2010-02-05T07:09:27Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > Should families that homeschool their children be subject to some form of inspection? If you allow homeschooling, yes. > [@](#): > > Should the children be required to take standardized tests? Yes > [@](#): > > Should the parents have to have a certain level of eduction or training? Yes > [@](#): > > What (if any) regulations should there be concerning families who are exclusively teach their children at home? Mandatory outside time/some sort of “socialisation for homeschooled kids” program where they get to meet other kids, the inspections & testing already mentioned, the children’s own wishes to be taken into account (i.e. inspector to determine that parents are not \*forcing \*homeschooling on their children if they’d rather go to school.) All this stems from my belief that children are \*\*not \*\*the property of their parents, that parents do not have any \*rights \*in regards to their children’s education as much as they have _responsibilities_. Society trumps parents, IMO (as long as it’s a society I agree with, of course 😉 ) If I were in charge, there’d be \*no \*homeschooling. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/138 "2010-02-05T08:10:41Z")
> [@](#): > > “Children educated at home are twice as likely to be known by social services and four times more likely as young adults to be out of work, education or training than those who go to school” That’s b/c a lot of homeschoolers are the VERY sheltered Jesus types. The type of UBERconservative families where beating a kid with an instrument is thought of as OK, and where they are SO sheltered they can’t even say gee or listen to Christian Contemporary Music. In other words the type of families where a school like Bob Jones is too libral. I’d take the claims of Homeschooling Legal Defense Assocition with a grain of salt. They are very conservative and very Baptist strict. Regarding unschooling. My girlfriend was unschooled and she is one of the smartest people I know. Granted her unschooling was done under the ageis of a very cool set of unconventional parents. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/139 "2010-02-05T13:10:31Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, but think about that for a moment. "These 16,311 homeschool students’ scores were not self-selected by parents or anyone else. " Are there only 16,311 homeschooling students in the nation? No, there are more. Does that, in fact, mean that they were self-selected? By definition, yes. The study used data from fifteen different testing services. So no, they were not self-selected by definition. > [@](#): > > The eggshell-thin rationalization that’s offered is that “The concern that the only families who chose to participate are the most successful homeschoolers can be alleviated by the fact that the overwhelming majority of parents did not know their children’s test results before agreeing to participate in the study.” This is, blatantly, bogus. If asked after the fact, parents would have known numerous facts including but not limited to how their children felt the did on the tests, how well they’d prepared, etc.. Do you have a cite that shows that the parents in this study knew how well their children did on the tests? Thanks in advance. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-homeschoolers-be-regulated/527677/140 "2010-02-05T15:08:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The study used data from fifteen different testing services. So no, they were not self-selected by definition. That’s a nonsequitor. It doesn’t matter if they used eight million testing services. In each and every case, home schooling parents had to choose to have their children take the test, and then had to choose to report their scores. This is then measured against a compulsory test given to everybody in various states, California for instance which includes a large percent of recent immigrants who cannot (by any honest person) be expected to be able to score at grade level statistically reliably. And out of that self-selected group of voluntary test-takers, only those who chose to report to the study are used (a _second_ level of self-selection, and one which the fraudsters deliberately use to obfuscate their findings. I’ll get to that in a moment) Even then the fraudsters’ claim that while 30+% knew their scores and the exact breakdown of difference between the reporting and the non-reporting cohorts was deliberately distorted. To say nothing of the fact that letting parents opt-in after their children already took the test, regardless of whether or not they knew the scores, would allow parents to choose to opt out if their kid came home and said “Mom, I bombed on that!” versus “Yeah, I aced it.” Moreover there were a host of other methodological problems, includi9ng but not limited to a highly unrepresentative sample size that the fraudsters want to claim is representative (almost 100% had personal computers at home and two parents [which they compare against 8th grade non-American Indian and Alaskan students. Seriously], more than 80% had one parent who didn’t work at all, and of that 20% almost 85% worked only part time, etc…) > [@Shodan](#): > > Do you have a cite that shows that the parents in this study knew how well their children did on the tests? I’m kinda surprised here Shodan. Your cite shows that. [ > [@](#): > > The concern that the only families who chose to participate are the most successful homeschoolers can be alleviated by the fact that the overwhelming majority of parents did not know their children’s test results before agreeing to participate in the study.]([http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/200908100.asp](http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/200908100.asp)) Which means that a non-zero percentage, in fact, _did know their children’s scores before agreeing to participate in the study._ If we look at their actual report, we also see that\* almost a third did in fact already know their scores\* and the denial of its influence is so flimsy methodologically as to be worthless, or, more likely, _misleading_. [ > [@](#): > > He began by asking whether children with higher test scores participated in the study in a higher proportion than those with lower test scores. Ray round that 69.4% of the parents did not know their children’s scores before the study was conducted. > […] > Ray then compared the scores of study participants with all the scores (study participants and non-participants) from three of the four major testing services involved with the study. […] The all-scores average was between only two and four percentile points lower than the participants-only scores.]([http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/ray2009/2009\_Ray\_StudyFINAL.pdf](http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/ray2009/2009_Ray_StudyFINAL.pdf)) So just a quick rundown: almost 1/3 of parents already knew their scores. To ‘prove’ that factor didn’t matter, only 3 of 4 (really 3 of 15) testing firms were cherrypicked to give results and even then the reporters were compared not against non reporters, but against _reporters plus non reporters_. \*\*They actually had the nerve to average in the doublely-self selected cohort with the non-reporters in order to boost their numbers. \*\* Fully 100% had already self selected to even be eligible for the study, despite their claims the cohort was wildly unrepresentative of the nation and the states where the test are given. And that doesn’t even get into the problems like standardized tests are a very poor metric of overall school efficiency, especially when you’re essentially measuring a public school that has to teach numerous things and a homeschooling parent who can deliberately choose to engage in nothing but test prep for however long they want. Most (actual) studies have shown that for things like the SAT, the single greatest predictor of score improvement is whether or not someone can afford to engage in test-prep. In fact, the spread for SAT scores based on SES levels for those who can afford test prep, home computers, etc… versus those who cannot very rather interestingly mirrors the spread for homeschoolers who can afford to do nothing but testprep if their parents decide to drill them on a test ahead of time. Again, all of this is from your cite and, to be honest, this is just a cursory glance of its deceptive construction. It’s almost a textbook (no pun intended) look at how to cook data to support an agenda. No honest participant in this debate should take anything those fraudsters say at face value, at all. 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